tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post1369672034756863931..comments2024-03-29T04:54:50.435-05:00Comments on Bayou Renaissance Man: Basic income: a good idea, or Big Brother writ large?Peterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10595089829300831372noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-51866070940734126242017-01-11T15:54:10.990-06:002017-01-11T15:54:10.990-06:00Two common themes recurring in this thread...
One...Two common themes recurring in this thread...<br /><br />One is the idea that the government is the gatekeeper and only source of money. The idea of a basic income is not that the government gives you all you have, only that it gives you all you need. You're still welcome to work, and honestly most people still would out of sheer boredom, but they may be more likely to attempt craft, research, or art, which would not normally reliably put food on the table.<br /><br />The other is, almost conversely, that people would have to work for a living and would begrudge those who don't. Again, the idea of a basic income is that you don't have to work for a living. Besides, how can you with the looming job crisis as all the menial labour and even some of the skilled labour is slowly replaced by robots, AI, and self-service in store or online.<br /><br />The questions on where the money is supposed to come from are far more interesting, and would likely take a lot of feasibility studies. One does have to wonder though, just how much does the current welfare system cost, and how much would a basic income cost by comparison? And if that doesn't get you anywhere, one might also remember that the highest paid executives earned more by mid last week than us mere mortals will earn in the entire year.m4noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-8161732605761516062017-01-10T16:54:19.783-06:002017-01-10T16:54:19.783-06:00Great, now try mixing that with open borders and s...Great, now try mixing that with open borders and see how well it works. Who's paying for that basic income? Will they be able to pay once the "refugees" and "undocumented immigrants" start flooding in and demanding theirs?On a Wing and a Whimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00754595334684845895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-16019008506896051512017-01-09T18:23:32.551-06:002017-01-09T18:23:32.551-06:00Manitoba did an experiment with it back in the 70&...Manitoba did an experiment with it back in the 70's or 80's I think. AFAIK they never released their full findings on how well it worked.kamas716https://westfargomusings.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-64342519467003850422017-01-09T13:29:49.736-06:002017-01-09T13:29:49.736-06:00Stefan Molyneux recently had a video on this topic...Stefan Molyneux recently had a video on this topic well worth watchingLastRedoubtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-2276619078240598612017-01-09T12:55:12.471-06:002017-01-09T12:55:12.471-06:00A true, simple UBI might make sense -- everybody g...A true, simple UBI might make sense -- everybody gets a certain amount (or is credited that against taxes). But it won't fly politically.<br /><br />As soon as there's any sort of budget crunch politicians will be screaming "why should Warren Buffet get UBI, he has enough money". A few years and we'll be back to today's means tested system. We already see this in demands that Social Security and Medicare be means tested.<br /><br />If we could create a simple UBI and eliminate other welfare programs, it makes sense. Give everybody a UBI. Get rid of welfare. Get rid of the tax personal exemption (or similar) which offsets UBI payments to higher earning individuals. You now have a system without the various welfare cliffs (earn $1 more, lose over $1 in benefits) and similar disincentives to work.Thomas Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05701283200252131890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-72839385557291962262017-01-09T11:06:53.850-06:002017-01-09T11:06:53.850-06:00I'd prefer a system where the government didn&...I'd prefer a system where the government didn't interfere in letting people succeed or fail on their own merits. UBI runs afoul of the old adage "that which we gain too cheaply, we esteem too lightly". Plus it'll just drive up costs sufficiently to capture the "free" money, resulting in a return to the status quo ante.<br /><br />You actually discussed this issue not too long ago, in February of last year (2016).<br /><br />http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2016/02/basic-income-rears-its-head-again.html<br /><br />As for the assumption that the UBI would be "just enough to get by"...HA! Two or three adults, all receiving the same benefit can pool their resources to live a quite comfortable life. Squalid by the standards of people who have to work for a living, but attractive to a growing segment of the population who think of work as something for sucker.jabrwokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14537636497352864636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-90123658994547196032017-01-09T07:49:48.206-06:002017-01-09T07:49:48.206-06:00As Trotsky predicted, "In a country where the...As Trotsky predicted, "In a country where the sole employer is the state, opposition means death by slow starvation. The old principle: 'who does not work shall not eat,' has been replaced with a new one: 'who does not obey shall not eat.'"Mikehttp://mctuggle.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-53463735782038208272017-01-09T04:41:13.536-06:002017-01-09T04:41:13.536-06:00Yeah, do note that this is in Finland, and experim...Yeah, do note that this is in Finland, and experiments involving a single fairly small and homogenous nation-state don't really scale up very well, and even less sideways.<br /><br />So not likely to be generalizable to the EU level and most certainly not into the USA.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-88244785748365804072017-01-09T02:16:52.243-06:002017-01-09T02:16:52.243-06:00Unknown (above) inadvertently steps into the trap:...Unknown (above) inadvertently steps into the trap: proposals such as this frequently become the "how" as the "why" fades into the background.<br /><br />As I often explain to my clients, using better technology to do the wrong thing faster is not a benefit.<br /><br />Much has been written about the tyranny of the majority, eg., the inherent flaws in democracy and why the United States is, in fact, a representative republic and not a democracy; establishing such a broad-based financial control system as a "national basic income" is a very large step toward democratic tyranny. <br /><br />Not that a well enforced federal minimum wage or a group of stipends from the fed dot gov would be similar things, of course.....Not Providednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-27754266371705108962017-01-08T22:58:01.788-06:002017-01-08T22:58:01.788-06:00Milton Friedman liked the basic income concept. Pa...Milton Friedman liked the basic income concept. Pat Moynihan liked programs aimed at everyone, not just one party. I like to see programs sold as 'see how it works' and not 'only literally Hitler could object. You look like Hitler. Prove you aren't Hitler by giving me money. And power.'brucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05784331972859363089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-55227206866324663162017-01-08T22:20:50.363-06:002017-01-08T22:20:50.363-06:00The bureaucrats will be less of a problem when com...The bureaucrats will be less of a problem when computers are doing all of their work. They'll be out of a job just like everyone else.<br /><br />The only caveat I'd add is that unions and politicians will keep them in the system longer than necessary, but they'll eventually want to kick back like everyone else.<br />RandyBeckhttp://randolphbeck.com/blog/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-83976434084779723082017-01-08T21:00:53.181-06:002017-01-08T21:00:53.181-06:00The problem with all these schemes is that you can...The problem with all these schemes is that you can design one that works today - but nothing is static. Even if you get all the correct laws to prevent abuse, changes to population growth one direction or the other can mess you up - then there are the disruptive technologies which are unpredictable by nature.<br /><br />Sadly when you have welfare you have that regardless of the payout system. My preference would be a single check system to minimize bureaucratic overhead, fraud, and waste. It is also auditable - where getting payments from fourteen different federal bureaucracies, four state, and one or two local ones is beyond hope of audit. Which I suspect is one of the reasons it functions that way. <br /><br />I know it annoys the hell out of people to see EBT card users buying junk at the minimart - essentially wasting money but the truth is - once we've decided to give it to them, it's theirs. Barring that, we should just move them into dorm rooms, and they can eat at the dining hall. <br /><br />So, if we're going to give them money - I'd rather have it be one deposit each month that can be audited and if they screw up - too damn bad.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00391535113209714025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-42736503924827655272017-01-08T19:31:24.995-06:002017-01-08T19:31:24.995-06:00But you'll never get rid of the bureaucrats, t...But you'll never get rid of the bureaucrats, they are too deeply embedded...Old NFOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16404197287935017147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-79983910141265227072017-01-08T18:22:08.631-06:002017-01-08T18:22:08.631-06:00On the "Big Brother" aspects of this... ...On the "Big Brother" aspects of this... that was all there already, this is supposed to cut at least some of that too.<br /><br />It's actually a cut in the "welfare" grants a skilled Finn could theoretically get already if they really knew how to work the system and were on good terms with the bureaucracy.<br /><br />However, certain groups were in practice unable to get even a fraction of this, due to either malicious bureaucrats, excessive honesty when filling out the forms, or whatever. Or working part-time in a low-paying job, or even worse, studying, instead of being completely idle and unemployed. <br /><br /><br />So, yeah. They're actually trying to improve things. Too early to tell if it'll work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-63963350235736831982017-01-08T16:48:22.403-06:002017-01-08T16:48:22.403-06:00Somehow, I omitted the "/sarcasm" tag.Somehow, I omitted the "/sarcasm" tag.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12822511906907583597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-52724272741968436612017-01-08T16:46:01.192-06:002017-01-08T16:46:01.192-06:00I can come up with several ways to do it, but they...I can come up with several ways to do it, but they all quickly run afoul of human nature. For starters, sloth is bad, m'kay?<br /><br />Given an advanced AI, it could conceivably be made to work. But it would be susceptible to GIGO. So it would have to monitor all transactions. But since we're taking about a system where it would be very, very difficult to correct errors, people would have to have their identification numbers stored in such a way that they couldn't be lost, stolen, or forgotten. Perhaps by implanting an RFID in the back of the hands or the forehead. Perhaps by just using advanced levels of biometric security based on fingerprints or facial recognition. <br /><br />Surely, no one but the superstitious could object.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12822511906907583597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-19099979469963945132017-01-08T15:32:18.771-06:002017-01-08T15:32:18.771-06:00As if the welfare system doesn't already do al...As if the welfare system doesn't already do all those things, Peter. That's one of the things that's so wrong with it, and changing it is very difficult. In England this problem is quite widespread.<br /><br />Moreover, the current system requires a large proportion of people to be receiving benefits - in some cases they are <b>expected</b> to be taxed too much and receive benefits to counter this.<br /><br />You just don't get that with a flat, no questions asked, bare minimum income. The key is that it is only enough, and that it is not too much. That way those who do not work will only get by, and those who do work will be rewarded all the more for it. This would provide an incentive to work, where the current system is more advantageous to those who do not work at all. Even working a day a week would be enough to improve your life, and this immediate gain would be plain to see - an important psychological aspect.<br /><br />There are pitfalls, but if the ground is laid properly, most can be avoided with ease. It'll also prepare us for the inevitable decline of the work-for-a-living economy, which is simply not going to be sustainable. <br />m4noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-49800576549457009822017-01-08T15:22:14.456-06:002017-01-08T15:22:14.456-06:00This is going to be necessary sooner than most peo...This is going to be necessary sooner than most people think. Computers and robots will eventually be capable of doing everything we can do.<br /><br />The trouble is, we're just not there yet. This is very dangerous when people should still be working.<br /><br />There are also ways to make this worse. It would be terrible if working would mean losing benefits.<br />RandyBeckhttp://randolphbeck.com/blog/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-53134098032456432352017-01-08T15:20:25.060-06:002017-01-08T15:20:25.060-06:00Someone pointed out to me a while back that we bas... Someone pointed out to me a while back that we basically already have this in place at many of our Tribal Reservations. Pine Ridge here in South Dakota makes a fine example. It's not really a very nice situation.<br /><br /> In one interpretation of the fall of man in Genesis, someone told me that men are cursed to work. If we fail to do so, self loathing sets in.<br /><br /> Steffenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07389334455596453447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-15341484838465204082017-01-08T13:54:22.428-06:002017-01-08T13:54:22.428-06:00The biggest poorly considered question attached to...The biggest poorly considered question attached to the Universal Basic Income idea IMO is that of ownership. The Finns seem to be attempting a tax giveaway (traditional welfare payments, however "streamlined"). Creating a National UBI Investment Fund - in which citizens are granted a minimum of individual ownership (at birth or upon achievement of citizenship) and have the ability to increase that level over the course of their lifetimes - seems to me to be a less easily manipulated politically and more easily address illegalities through established due process.<br /><br />One UBI share qualifies the owner for the minimum UBI payment upon application at the time of attaining legal majority. Citizens can purchase (or be gifted with by others) additional "shares", which pay a fixed percentage of the amount of growth in the fund those shares create. As a hypothetical example, a minimum UBI payment of US$2,000/mo would receive a supplement of US$25/mo for each additional share owned.<br /><br />A related funding question poorly examined; who's going to put up the original capital for all these robots that are going to put us out of work? A UBI fund that provided the investment capital (and collected the lease payments) for them might be one source of funding for such a concept that can be structured to not easily respond to spontaneous political tampering.<br /><br />The UBI concept has merit, if it can be structured to be financially self-supporting and tamper resistant. If that can be achieved successfully, the government then becomes "big enough to protect what you own from government itself" (if only because government employees and politicians would be UBI owners themselves).<br />Will Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13454533450309633627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-25838065763757029432017-01-08T13:43:55.512-06:002017-01-08T13:43:55.512-06:00In my opinion citizens wage would be a good thing ...In my opinion citizens wage would be a good thing for nations like Sweden and Finland, provided it is based on a carefully worded law with a wide basis in parliament, and provided that it is not something you apply for, it must be a right and extended to every adult citizen (or every adult citizen residing in the nation).<br />It must replace all entitlement programs (but not insurance programs).<br />It should n0be on a legs to live on, but not to live comfortably. Many entitlement programs serve as an incentive not to work, citizens wage done right would serve as an incentive to work.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06018665157500569016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-63233813488655475532017-01-08T12:41:43.461-06:002017-01-08T12:41:43.461-06:00The problem isn't just that “A government big ...The problem isn't just that “A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have.”. Sure, that can happen, and has often enough. But although they loom large in peoples' minds, Maos and Stalins don't come around all that often. The message that people will (I think) take as of more immediate concern is that the government that is big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to crush you like a bug without noticing. Anyone who looks can find examples of that every day.C. S. P. Schofieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18307088118631856756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-80469099775094871632017-01-08T12:33:31.961-06:002017-01-08T12:33:31.961-06:00Don't forget the possibility that the people r...Don't forget the possibility that the people receiving the stipend could organize, and use their votes to demand ever increasing stipends from their elected officials.<br /><br />Kind of like public sector unions already do. Except it would be everyone.<br /><br />(See also the fictional descent of the Republic of Haven into the People's Republic of Haven in David Weber's Honorverse.)Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16624457882192131051noreply@blogger.com