tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post5785038793571356070..comments2024-03-28T04:53:22.941-05:00Comments on Bayou Renaissance Man: A tactical thought about the US Army's next-generation helicoptersPeterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10595089829300831372noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-18629324112316823882018-08-04T21:19:53.027-05:002018-08-04T21:19:53.027-05:00Pros and cons vs our current inventory. I suppose ...Pros and cons vs our current inventory. I suppose the powers that be want range and speed more than a slightly smaller landing area. <br /><br />I don’t think we have done that sort of large air assault in confined areas since ‘Nam. Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09612373437033635765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-1590653383734632972018-08-04T21:16:11.283-05:002018-08-04T21:16:11.283-05:00The technology to engage helicopters or any aircra...The technology to engage helicopters or any aircraft inside say 3,000 meters has existed for about 40 years. The Muj were smoking Russian helos with stingers in the 80’s. Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09612373437033635765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-81463718478398604542018-08-03T18:25:33.469-05:002018-08-03T18:25:33.469-05:00In brutal honesty, I don't think that the air ...In brutal honesty, I don't think that the air assault technique is going to be viable in the not-so-far-off future.<br /><br />Proliferation of drone technology is going to be what does the whole thing in, and it's gonna be ugly for the ninnyhammers who think it still works. That incident in Iraq, during the closing phase of the war, where we lost nearly a brigade of Army attack aviation? That's going to happen, again and again, but on a nastier scale.<br /><br />I want you to think carefully, about this: What, pray tell, happens when one of those expensive aviation assets sucks a drone into an engine? What happens when the insurgents weaponize the damn things, adding improvised explosives to the payload? Hell, tell me what happens when they use 'em to drape wires over the LZ as you're going in to land...?<br /><br />War is going to change, massively. Much of the technology we have is going to have to adapt, and the sad fact is, I really don't see us being able to come up with the equivalent of an MRAP helicopter or tilt-wing. Things flying in the air are expensive as f**k to armor, and the armor doesn't do a lot to ensure survivability.<br /><br />My guess is that the future is going to be missing a bunch of "knights of the sky" BS, until anti-gravity and energy weapons show up that can erase the inherent issues of dealing with hordes of cheap flying drones and being able to withstand close-in blast effect.<br /><br />I can only imagine what the VC would have done with cheap drones, when it came to interdicting LZs out in the jungle. Hell, as is? They damn near put a stop to a couple of operations with just those damn MON-300 mines they were starting to play with...takirkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01228716337489374348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-8372572458677008782018-08-03T14:28:36.978-05:002018-08-03T14:28:36.978-05:00Not only are these more delicate (sensitive to dam...Not only are these more delicate (sensitive to damage), but for the same size fuselage, they have a lot more surface area (wings and pods) for targeting purposes. They make no sense for hot LZ's.<br /><br />If my ground forces were going to be countered by troops using these things, I would have the armament design people work on developing a hand launched/ground mounted short range engine tracking missile to kill these things in the hover mode.Willhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722792638246578812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-55341907007459533222018-08-03T09:18:26.954-05:002018-08-03T09:18:26.954-05:00Leaving the LZ doesn't seem to be an issue, ju...Leaving the LZ doesn't seem to be an issue, just making the fastest possible landing.Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13296988746956477216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-80323467502311078932018-08-03T09:17:04.967-05:002018-08-03T09:17:04.967-05:00For an assault into a potentially hot LZ, I have r...For an assault into a potentially hot LZ, I have read comments by combat vet helo pilots about the limitations of the V-22 getting in quickly compared to Hueys or Blackhawks. It seems tiltrotors can arrive quickly, but transitioning, slowing down and descending is markedly inferior, and that is precisely the moments of greatest danger from groundfire. I'm not sure how much weight to put on that, but it seems plausible based on video I've seen.Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13296988746956477216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-77233085990384650412018-08-03T06:07:52.028-05:002018-08-03T06:07:52.028-05:00Twin-tilt rotor has multiple points of failure, an...Twin-tilt rotor has multiple points of failure, and is <i>remarkably</i> prone to catastrophic damage by AA gun fire.<br /><br />We still need assault helicopters and heavy lift helicopters. These are different missions, requiring different platforms.McChuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10243337792601085456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-7510783966405049122018-08-03T01:06:21.102-05:002018-08-03T01:06:21.102-05:00I remember flying in helos in Egypt a long time ag...I remember flying in helos in Egypt a long time ago. The Marines I was with point blank refused to fly in ch 46 or kamman coffins. We probably lost more Marines to crappy helos than were killed in Vietnam.HMS Defianthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10024721130102173694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-19143949146192439442018-08-02T20:00:57.879-05:002018-08-02T20:00:57.879-05:00Honestly, the optimum solution would probably be s...Honestly, the optimum solution would probably be some mix of both types. The tilt-rotor will probably give you better range (this is the real reason the Marines like them - longer range means they can keep their amphibious ships further offshore, and thus further away from unfriendly anti-ship missiles.) For the Army, longer range means they can use airmobile units for deeper vertical insertions without having to resort to using paratroops. (This also makes the AF happy, because it helps keep their valuable cargo planes from having to overfly enemy air defenses.) Also expends the possible insertion distance for LRRPs/deep recon and SOF elements.<br /><br />The CACR-compound helicopter will probably perform better within the traditional flight envelope of helicopters - especially hovering and maneuvering in directions other than forward. And, as Peter has pointed out, fitting into tight LZs.<br /><br />So, ideally, purchase some mix of both. Let the rotorheads and their living cargo figure out the exact mix.<br /><br />The problem is, the budget probably only supports one type. (Although the 160th SOAR might well buy some of both, especially if the development costs for whichever one loses on the Big Army side can be absorbed at least partially by civilian sales.)Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16624457882192131051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-22800946893465233672018-08-02T16:18:04.253-05:002018-08-02T16:18:04.253-05:00Can't fault any of your comments. On the other...Can't fault any of your comments. On the other hand I'd say there's a little bit of apples and oranges there. The V22 is more nearly comparable to a Chinook including sling loading.<br /><br />If I wanted to knock the V22 I'd talk about hanging off the skids playing lawn darts - that is planting ground sensors. If I wanted to praise the V22 I'd emphasize the ramp.<br /><br />Mostly, I'd generalize to the notion of horses for courses bearing in mind Dr. Pournelle's (et al) on the strategy of technology combined with a tendency to justify the expense by calling a master of one thing a jack of all trades. See also F35 vs. A10 or the TFX controversy where the FB111 turned out to be really good for Australia because the airframe had enough mass to fly fast and low and absorb a little heat for longer range maritime patrol work. For others not so great on cost benefit.clark myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04087642063181620051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-14175345517810235742018-08-02T14:35:51.163-05:002018-08-02T14:35:51.163-05:00The whole focus of these tilt-rotor aircraft is to...The whole focus of these tilt-rotor aircraft is to enable a twin turboprop aircraft to hover at it's destination. At some point not too many years ago, they walked away from trying to make helicopters fly faster. They had one design with a different swash plate design that was significantly faster than any other chopper, but I suspect that political shenanigans killed it. <br />These current tilt-rotor systems are ridiculous for tactical situations, but money talks. This newer version is just more of the "me-too" mode of thinking.Willhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722792638246578812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-52638089848211299132018-08-02T13:26:50.789-05:002018-08-02T13:26:50.789-05:00Peter, please look at the diagram again. The size...Peter, please look at the diagram again. The size of the circle which shows the area of each rotor is not dependent on where the individual blades are at any given moment. The radius stays the same as the blades turn. So the diagram is not "cheating".<br />But I agree completely with you about the benefits of small rotor size. <br /><br />Bart NoirBart Noirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18222764643931683174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6244999628674918029.post-7373178366028981442018-08-02T12:39:24.315-05:002018-08-02T12:39:24.315-05:00Not related to size, but videos of the failure mod...Not related to size, but videos of the failure modes of rotorcraft rotors is that tail rotors and single rotor failures of vertically stacked main rotors fail controllably. Multiple main rotors that are separated across the craft - such as the Osprey and the Chinook - have a failure mode better described as 'catastrophic loss of control followed by unsurvivable crash.' The Osprey has gotten much better, but if these were approaching an LZ I had under observation, I'd have my MG crew dump a full belt into that nice exposed area where the gearbox rotates up, with all the delicate exposed machinery.roamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03379029137402219659noreply@blogger.com