They may be lying by omission (saying nothing) rather than admitting anything. Karl Denninger poses this uncomfortable question in his analysis of the recall of millions of vehicles by Toyota. He points out that there have been questions raised about 'runaway' Toyota vehicles, where the accelerator stuck full-on and could not be shut off, even burning out the brakes when they were applied, and indicates that at least one fatal accident may be related to this. He goes on to say that the software used by Toyota doesn't have a fail-safe function so that it will shut off the ignition when the brakes are pressed, unlike some other manufacturers.
Mr. Denninger sums up:
Note what's NOT in the "official" Toyota announcement by Toyota USA's statement above - any mention of a software change, as Toyota's President asserts that the software is perfectly ok - and safe.
But then we have Autonation's CEO, and this is what he said this morning ... [he] confirms that they're changing the software!
Why is it that Toyota USA's President didn't bother to mention the software?
Is Autonation (a Toyota dealer) misinformed or is Toyota trying to bury any mention of part of the fix - that it is changing ECU software?
You decide whether Toyota has been and is now being straight with people or not.
There's more at the link. Sobering reading, but very important stuff. If I were driving a Toyota, I'd want some answers, at once if not sooner - and I wouldn't be driving my vehicle any further until I got them, and was satisfied with them!
Peter
I'm troubled to learn of the lack of the gas + brake = kill switch functionality. It is a suitable safeguard for passenger carriers, although it may not be in a higher-performance application.
ReplyDeleteI mean, never mind the rest of it.
Jim
Frankly, I think Toyota is going the extra mile on this recall. As I understand it, there are two issues. First is a stuck gas pedal which was determined by NTSB to be caused by clearance issues with certain optional foot-well pads. This was caused by bringing the bottom of the gas pedal too near the floor for the comfort of drivers with small feet. Rather than settle for this, Toyota went over every reported gas-pedal stick and discovered several that could not be accounted for with this failure mode. They then went into high gear and discovered a new issue with the lubricant used on the accelerator linkage. They then literally SHUT-DOWN the production lines until a suitable fix could be implemented. Which, I'm told, is unprecedented.
ReplyDeleteThe software issue sounds like a 'Belt-and-suspenders' fix. It probably is not implemented by many car manufacturers because it would cause a stall condition for a certain percentage of drivers, especially those in third-world countries who use heel-and-toe shifting as a rule. Indeed, I was taught it in Drivers-Ed in Leander, Texas, and still do it from force of habit when I drive a stick. It should also be noted that at least on my Toyota, I can kill the Ignition without locking the steering wheel, something I could not do on my Oldsmobile.
This reminds me of the start of one of Tom Clancy's novels - only he used the Camry - it led to a major problem with Japan etc.
ReplyDeleteWe live in interesting times! (BHo will probably try to bail them out too.)
the software fix is a generally used piece of logic, when brakes are on throttle = 0. There must be some reason T has not gone this route.
ReplyDeleteYou can see the simple beauty of the software logic.
the idle speed at 0 throttle has about about a dozen different control parameters, stalling prevention is not an issue
ReplyDeleteYou don't necessarily want the throttle to cut to zero the moment the brake is applied. "Brake torquing" is quite common if you want the best launch with an automatic transmission vehicle (left foot on brake, right foot on the accelerator).
ReplyDeleteStill, I wonder how often one tends to brake torque the Camry or Corolla. I'd think that this type of throttle kill would be able to be implemented at speeds of over 2mph- if you're moving at any decent speed and the computer registers a wide open throttle and an actual application of brakes, the throttle is cut back to idle until the speed comes down.
As for the Clancy book, it was NOT a Toyota Camry; it was a fictional vehicle named the Cresta (and it was in Debt of Honor).
I've just never been a fan of Toyota. Every single one I've driven has been soulless and numb. Fine for a sensory deprivation chamber, not what I want in a car.
OK, so I checked all 3 of my cars, a Ford Focus, an Acura Legend, and my new Hyundai Genesis. None of them cut the ignition when both the brake and gas are depressed. Someone is blowing smoke here....
ReplyDeletePeter T is right. Nobody has such a function. The lawyer is also blowing smoke. There isn't a car built that can overcome it's own brakes when the operator really wants the car to stop.
ReplyDeleteEven if the throttle sticks, you can still jam the vehicle into neutral. The engine will roar like a pissed off rottweiler but the vehicle will quit accelerating. And the brakes and steering will still work.
ReplyDeleteAt least that's what they taught me in that defensive driving class...
Oh Please. They stopped selling several models of cars, let alone the largest recall in histroy, until they get the problem fixed. Who cares what they are saying about it so long as they get it fixed and so long as it does not happen again and so long as those who were harmed, or their heirs, get recompense since Toyota screwed up.
ReplyDeleteAll the best,
GB
smartdogs, that's what I told my wife and mother-in-law. Stick that sucker in neutral and doesn't matter what the accelerator's doing.
ReplyDeleteThis really does seem to be much ado about nothing. Maybe they don't teach what others have mentioned already, but if my car doesn't start stopping when I apply the break, it's going into neutral or I'm cutting the ignition; and honestly, if I ever come across a car where I can't do that myself, I won't be buying the car. Then again, I still by stick shift so...
ReplyDeleteWhile a software control that drops the engine to idle when the break and gas are pressed simultaneously can be a helpful feature, having it be the only way of safely stopping a runaway acceleration strikes me as being akin to relying only on your mechanical safety to keep you from blowing your brains out.
As to Toyota "covering up" the software change, it would appear to me that the software change is irrelevant when talking about what Toyota is doing to fix the problem, since the problem is sticking accelerators not a faulty ECU. Changing the software is minor and makes no difference until the accelerators are fixed.
Full Disclosure: I own and drive a Toyota Yaris which is not under this recall.