Earlier this week I published an article titled "Organized mayhem on American streets", analyzing a demonstration in Minneapolis last weekend and pointing out that it was highly organized and directed.
William Kirk, president of Washington Gun Law, has analyzed the same incident, and offers a legal framework within which self-defense is justifiable under such circumstances.
Zero Hedge summarizes his recommendations like this:
Legal Standpoint:
- Understanding of self-defense laws is crucial.
- Key principles of self-defense:
- Force can be used in self-defense if it is necessary, reasonable, and proportional.
- Lethal force can only be used under specific conditions (imminent threat of death, serious injury, etc.).
- Driving into or over individuals can be considered deadly force.
- Defending property:
- Cannot use lethal force solely to defend property.
- Physical threats to individuals inside the car can justify the use of force.
Scenarios:
- If only the car is being damaged, lethal force is not justified [with the possible exception of Texas - see below].
- If windows are being smashed, the potential threat of serious bodily injury arises.
- If attackers are trying to pull people out of the car, it indicates an imminent threat, potentially justifying lethal force.
- The driver in the video showed restraint and did not use lethal force despite being surrounded twice.
There's more at the link.
Texas law does allow the use of lethal force to protect property under certain conditions and circumstances, but that's (as far as I know) unique to that state. What's more, given liberal/progressive prosecuting authorities, I'd be careful about claiming that as a legal defense, because they might bring a bunch of extraneous factors into play to nullify it. In general, no matter where you are, property is "stuff". Let it go. Human lives are more important - particularly human lives lived together in freedom, and not in prison.
Peter
https://texas.public.law/statutes/tex._penal_code_section_9.42
ReplyDeleteThe problem is - it's still going to cost you 6-figures to defend. One positive part of TX code is that IF you are found not guilty in criminal act (self-defense), then you are immune to civil remedy for same act. See -- https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/CP/htm/CP.83.htm
Yep,
ReplyDeleteSection 9.31 - Self-Defense
(a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;
(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or
--- use of force is presumed to be legal if someone uses force to attempt to enter your vehicle, or attempts to remove you from your vehicle.
Of course I argued this point with one of our constable's deputies during the course of a Citizen's Police Academy session. Despite quoting the actual statute, he would not be convinced that you could use force as soon as they tried to get in.
Any encounter is going to be a crapshoot afterwards, but I'm going to take steps to ensure that I will HAVE an afterwards.
n
The only problem I have (lawyers, judges, prosecutors interpreting legal code) is that I've had the opportunity to watch (twice) three situations escalate/explode in milliseconds with (what appeared to be) no initiating (neither verbal nor aggressive movement) cause.
ReplyDeleteMy own personal opinion:
I think there are many lawyers, judges, prosecutors, juries who are looking at the problem
1. from a distance of two weeks to two years,
2. have never been in (or conceived of) a situation faced by (dirtied their underwear) the actual victim/defendant.
Our (legal) culture has gotten to the point of defending the aggressor's/mob's/"oppressed" class' rights.
The laws are not particularly relevant. What is more important is the political agenda of the prosecutor in the jurisdiction involved. Unless you are filthy rich and can afford top tier legal help any DA anywhere can easily destroy any citizen with nonstop charges that go on forever. Facts stopped being relevant from a legal standpoint a long time ago. And reality is NOT friendly to ordinary people. Avoiding civil disturbances is best. If you can't, remain as anonymous as possible and put as much distance between yourself and the problem as you can as quickly as you can.
ReplyDeleteSheriff officer here told me after calling 911 but BEFORE THE COPS SHOW UP, grab one of your kitchen knives and put it next to him. We'll take care of the rest.
ReplyDeleteThis is BEYOND dumb.
DeleteYou stage a knife. Blood droplets are under the knife but not on the knife.
Yes, there could be be an argument made that the droplets were deposited there before the knife fell.
Good luck convincing anyone of that (depending on the arc and distribution of said droplets) and I hope your stay in prison is pleasant.
Because that’s where you’re headed if you screw with evidence. Might want to pre-grease before you get checked in…
@Anonymous at 1:18PM: That's very, very bad advice. Don't falsify a thing. Don't rearrange the crime scene. Don't lie to officers or investigators. If they get the slightest hint of any of that, you change in their eyes from a citizen trying to be honest with them, to a suspect trying to conceal something from them. That can buy you a whole heap of trouble.
ReplyDeleteThis guy was LUCKY, as the situation was videoed from several angles, and POSTED ONLINE. Hell; the "peaceful protesters" actually INCRIMINATED THEMSELVES with THEIR OWN POSTED VIDEOS!!! Dumb-asses will dumb-ass.
ReplyDeleteDo yourself favor; INSTALL A DASHCAM with FOREWARD AND REARWARD-FACING CAMERAS!!! This way, the jury gets to see things from YOUR standpoint! Just remember; if you have to bail on the car, be sure to grab the SD card from the dashcam! Also, if you have a passenger and the presence of mind, have THE PASSENGER start recording what's going on.
...Personally, I think the majority of these "peaceful protesters" should be forced out of the gene pool...
The advice about the kitchen knife, by the deputy, is way out of date. Having said that, there is a major kernel of truth that underlies the history of it.
ReplyDeleteMost burglars, and those breaking in who THINK your house is empty, will head for the kitchen first, to arm themselves with kitchen knives!
If they get caught entering or leaving, they don't want to be caught carrying a weapon, as that makes the breaking and entering charges a lot heavier in court. Felonies, generally. They will toss the knives in the yard, typically.
I have heard that some people lock the kitchen sharp or pointy objects in a drawer when not in use, to avoid arming miscreants.
There are basic rules in LE when dealing with domestic situations - keep everyone away from the kitchen, that's where the knives are, and if you can, get everyone outside and at opposite ends of the yard because you do not know if there are weapons under couch cushions, and normal household items - ashtrays, table lamps, etc. make very handy weapons.
ReplyDeleteRE: burglars and kitchen knives - knife blocks and the magnetic strips are very handy kitchen tools but do you really want to put weapons out where they are so easily accessible?
Put them in a drawer, mine are. I don't have a key lock on the drawer but I do have one of the more complicated child safety drawer locks on it. If you use the drawer daily using the lock becomes second nature, but trying to operate it in the dark without any experience with it will certainly slow anyone down and make noise.
And speaking of "burglar tools" I always cringe when I see a very well ordered arrangement of tools on a pegboard in a garage. Quite a few of those tools are very useful burglary tools; if someone gains access to your garage do you want to provide them with the pry bars,sledge hammer or axe they can use to get into the house? Get a toolbox and keep it locked when you're not home.
From the Sierra Nevada range vicinity:
ReplyDeleteFolks should be aware of multiple products out there like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRIzzQ6CRcI
Available for application at many local places, and for far le$$ than the cost of a criminal lawyer's minimum retainer.
Not bulletproof, but definitely close to riot-proof.
Choose wisely.
I've got a minor quibble - property is stuff, but for example my truck costs about a third of my yearly income. It took me many many hours of my life working to afford that truck. Just let it go? And then be forced to sacrifice that many more hours of my life to replace it? Insurance? Insurance companies will tell you that the book value is $xxx, which is nowhere near replacement value.
ReplyDeleteI know what the law says, but I don't agree with it. Anything stolen from me should be measured in how many hours of my life it took to earn it.