We've covered this subject before in these pages, on more than one occasion. However, some of the comments on a recent blog post spoke of needing a more powerful cartridge to deal with urban terrorists of the Antifa ilk. Examples:
- "Maybe that .308 is a good idea after all."
- "I do agree with Anon (above), I think it's time to temporarily retire the 5.56 and check the zero on the 7.62X51."
- "not in a place to add x51 to the logistics. I will have to concentrate on placement."
I'll be the first to agree that, all other things being equal, the more powerful round (in this case, 7.62x51mm NATO) is more likely to incapacitate an attacker than the current military standard 5.56x45mm NATO. Trouble is, all other things seldom are equal. Many factors will help to determine whether you can stop an attacker or not.
I used an FN FAL rifle (South Africa's R1 version, chambered in 7.62x51mm NATO) in action, and later a clone of the Israeli Galil (South Africa's R4 rifle, chambered in 5.56x45mm NATO). I was far more impressed with the "stopping power" of the former rifle and round compared to the latter. I was taught the Rhodesian "drake shooting" technique, which worked very well in our bush warfare environment. If a bush was behaving aggressively (or even if it just looked suspicious), one put a couple of rounds through it, low down. Generally, the bush resumed its normal peaceful existence at once! One couldn't guarantee that with 5.56; their very high velocity and light bullet weight (they were first-generation M193 rounds) meant that they didn't have adequate penetration, and often broke up or were diverted by hitting twigs and branches. If the bush was shooting at you at the time, that was a distinctly sub-optimal result! The contemporary view was that 5.56 was a great "spray and pray" round, giving you the ability to carry a lot more smaller rounds compared to the bigger, heavier 7.62; but if you really wanted to put someone down and keep them down, the latter was a better choice.
However, in the USA today, we're not talking about a bush warfare environment. The heavier bullet, deeper penetration (up to and including over-penetration) and greater energy levels of a 7.62 round are contra-indicated if innocents may be exposed to danger. That danger can be minimized by good marksmanship, but if one's any distance from one's target, and that target is moving and/or has cover or concealment available, the chances of getting a hit get steadily worse. One can minimize risk by selecting ammunition that's less likely to pass through an attacker to hit someone else, but such rounds are hard to come by and usually very expensive. That's the penalty one pays for selecting the more powerful cartridge.
The 5.56 cartridge, on the other hand, has been steadily developed. I devoted an entire article to it not long ago, which I invite you to read for more details. Briefly, one can select ammunition that's very unlikely to overpenetrate; and one can practice more intensively with cheaper ball ammunition until one is less likely to miss one's target. Shot placement, after all, is critical. A powerful non-expanding bullet through a non-vital part of the body may irritate rather than incapacitate. An expanding round in the same place will do a lot more damage to critical organs even if it near-misses them, making it more likely to end the fight.
The same applies to handgun rounds. Probably the most common defensive handgun cartridge, by far, is the 9mm Parabellum/Luger. The FBI has adopted it, the majority of law enforcement agencies use it, and it can be bought almost anywhere. However, it's no more than adequate as a "stopper", and that's provided it's put in the right place. If it's simply fired without proper aim or target selection, it's a whole lot less successful, simply because it doesn't deliver very much power. Want an illustration? See this article, which contains a video clip (scroll down at the link: WARNING - GRAPHIC) of a sheriff's deputy firing no less than twelve rounds of 9mm. hollowpoint ammunition into the torso of a man advancing on him at point-blank range and striking him with a tree branch. The aggressor absorbed all 12 rounds before finally falling over. If he'd delivered a solid blow to the deputy's head during that time, the officer might not have survived his injuries. Clearly, not one of those twelve rounds hit a vital spot that would have stopped the attacker in his tracks. Shot placement was deficient every time. It was the cumulative damage that eventually brought him down. (The shooting was later ruled to be justified.)
If you want to contrast that with another actual case, consider the Kyle Rittenhouse affair in Waukesha Kenosha, Wisconsin a few years ago. Mr. Rittenhouse fired only a few rounds. According to some reports, they were standard M193 ball - nothing out of the ordinary. However, most were fired accurately. Two were center-of-mass hits in the chest, and killed the attackers stone dead. A third took out a large part of a critical arm muscle, preventing the attacker using his arm and the weapon he held in his hand - what the military would call a "mission kill", even though not an actual kill. You'll find video clips of the shootings on YouTube and elsewhere.
Again, let's point out that extremely accurate, precise shooting, particularly with a handgun, is not easy in the excitement and confusion of an armed encounter. Someone who shoots high scores in practice or in competition might find himself shaking with tension in a real fight, and hard put to it to remember even to use his sights! This is not uncommon. That being the case, to use a merely "adequate" round for personal defense may not be good enough. There's always been a strong school of thought - backed up by a great deal of combat experience - that says a more powerful round is more likely to end the fight quickly, particularly with multiple hits. That was my experience in African conflicts during the 1980's and later. I know several members of US special forces who'll emphatically agree with that perspective.
If you're going to use a less powerful round - rifle or pistol - in combat, you have to compensate for that lower power level by being more accurate. Many people don't practice enough to be sure of that. I carry a 9mm pistol almost every day, because it's small and concealable, but that doesn't mean I'm happy with its "stopping power". Instead, I make sure that I can put my rounds where they need to go, and I won't hesitate to aim at particularly vulnerable areas of an attacker's body if that's what it will take to stop him.
In the light of the urban terrorism, rioting and unrest fostered by Antifa, BLM and their ilk, I'm also trying to find a solution that will allow me (despite my weakened spine and limited mobility) to employ heavier weapons in defense of my wife and myself if necessary. New ammunition technology has produced some rounds that offer lighter recoil than earlier ones, both in handguns and in long guns. If the reduction in recoil is sufficient, I may revert to heavier calibers and cartridges in my primary defensive armament. I'm still testing them, and I'll let you know in due course. (If you'd like to test them for yourself, consider Sellier & Bellot's XRG range of solid copper ammunition for handguns. It looks like they've developed a viable alternative to the excellent Barnes TAC-XPD bullet range, at a lower price point. There are also some interesting alternatives in rifle ammo, of which I'll have more to say soon.)
In general terms, as far as handgun rounds are concerned, I'm coming to the conclusion that anything that fires an expanding bullet generating muzzle energy approaching 500 foot-pounds or more is likely to be a good, efficient "stopper", provided you put the bullet where it needs to go. That energy level appears to "jolt" the human body sufficiently that it can't be ignored or fought through - although, as always, circumstances alter cases. If an attacker is hopped-up on drugs, or in the grip of fear or excitement, that will likely change his physiological response to being shot. Rifles are a different case altogether, as discussed elsewhere. More on that later.
Peter
This is one of the reasons I switched from the 9mm to the .40.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.police1.com/officer-shootings/articles/why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/
I shot my G-1 FAL in 3Gun, heavy division, at least a dozen times and it served me well. Metal targets howl with delight in comparison to 5.56Nato.
ReplyDeleteI'm still convinced there's a sweet spot in infantry cartridges as described in '6mm Optimum cartridge' by Stanley Crist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6mm_Optimum. 6mm ARC is getting close to this.
There are no generalities. Look at the Miami FBI shooting. Neither of those two bad guys had even so much as caffeine in their system. One kept on killing and wounding the FBI Agents after receiving two (2) non-survivable wounds.
ReplyDeleteLike you said, bullet placement is important but there is the fickle finger of fate that gets a vote.
Hey Peter;
ReplyDeleteYour article was fortunate happenstance, I had read that earlier article and was and am considering a different caliber for my next AR build so I can lose it in the kayak you understand *wink*wink*. I already have a stripped lower so it may be a 6.5 creedmore or a 6.8 SPC, or I may just go with a 308 build. Haven't decided yet. Cost and controllability is a factor since I am older and have creeping health issues.
Peter, in your experience, how effective is the 7.62X39 round? I wonder how well it works with soft points from American companies.
ReplyDeleteReplied re: 7.62x39 below to main thread, but forgot to note that not all combloc weapons like US brass cases. Some Hornady offerings use barnaul cases and primers.
DeleteBut yes, hornady's 7.62x39 perform as advertised/expected.
In order of importance:
ReplyDeleteA) HAVE a weapon.
B) Have fired that weapon enough to operate it under extreme pressure, and do so with some accuracy. That is likely thousands of rounds of drill, not dozens.
(A LONG ways down the stack......)
C) Game out which weapon or caliber is best for your defensive situation.
To put it in less words: ANYTHING on your belt that goes bang beats ANYTHING that's home in the safe.
ReplyDeleteA few thoughts in no perticular order...
~500 ftlb energy seems about ideal with a good JHP. That pushes you in to a great many options: .45 ACP, .357 Mag, .357 Sig, Super .38 (proper loads), 10mm. 9mm is good enough most if the time and has good reliablity, light recoil and good capacity. Once you start climbing well above 500 the revoil starts to become excessive.
.40 is a compromise and not a great one. They are snappy and wear on guns. They also are a poor feeding cartridge. There are reasons why it has fallen out if favor for 9mm.
My next rifle build will be a 6.5 Grendel or 6 ARC. It will split the differance effectively and greatly improve my range. That said , modern 5.56 is perfectly fine, especally at the distance I expect to use it. I would add that antifa works in groups so capacity is more of a consideraton in that circumstance.
Overpen is a consideration for me considering my enviroment.
All handgun rounds are compromises. I would wager that if you are having feed issues with a .40 cal weapon; it is the weapon and not the cartridge design that is to blame.
DeleteI'm not saying the cartridge doesn't have issues. Increased wear and tear being the main appreciable one. As long as one is training with it recoil is a non issue as well. I prefer .45 but I and my entire family carry .40 now because since the gun community and law enforcement dislike the cartridge it has become super cheap to stock up on guns/parts/ammo for them.
@Fred: Having been shot (twice) with 7.62x39mm ball, I'd say it works pretty well! However, I'm still here to talk about it, which says something about the importance of bullet placement...
ReplyDeleteBasically, 7.62 Russian is an adequate round for short-to-medium ranges. It wasn't designed to be as accurate as 5.56: it's a battlefield round, where conscripts who aren't taught real marksmanship can spray an area (a trench, say, or a strongpoint) with fire and overwhelm it by volume rather than by accuracy. Its major drawback in the context of the USA is that ammunition supplies are largely dependent on imports. Block them, and those who rely on 7.62 Russian had better have large reserve supplies. You can't rely on "battlefield pickup" for ammo resupply here.
Effectiveness? Yes, if it hits something important, as for the other rounds we discussed.
Odd nobody's talking about shotguns.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was involved in the police years ago when it got serious you took the shotgun into the situation. We were issued 38 specials but were allowed to carry (and provide ammo) for whatever side arm we wanted.
Speaking from the surgery side of things, I've treated plenty of pistol wounds, more than a few centerfire wounds and some shotgun wounds.
Shotguns even loaded at close range (inside the house) with even 7.5 birdshot is a messy nasty man stopper. Buckshot, like getting shot with a full magazine of 32 ACP or worse.
I've trained plenty of soldier's wives in the defensive use of the 20 gauge, when their husbands wanted a pistol for the wife. The mockup of an interior wall with 2X4 and sheet rock showed what over penetration was with a hollow point 38 and a ham blasted with a load of #4 lead birdshot at 7 yards showed the effectiveness.
20 Guage is 61 caliber and muzzle velocity with standard loads is 1200 feet per second+. Please compare to even the 357 and 45 ACP.
@Michael: Entirely agreed, but with three caveats:
ReplyDelete1. Shotguns are not easily portable. Handguns are.
2. Ammo for shotguns is bulky and heavy compared to rifle rounds. You can carry 200 rifle rounds relatively easily, but for a shotgun, you'll be lucky to carry 20 or 30 in the same bulk.
3. Shotguns are short-range weapons: even with slugs, 100 yards is about their limit. Not an important consideration for home defense, but against a mob in the street (some of whom may be shooting at you), it's definitely of some concern.
Shotguns are situational and within their envelope they are devistating. I used to be in the camp the suggested a shotgun 1st for home defense, but evolved. My issues were recoil, reliablity, manual of arms, capacity, and percision.
DeleteIt is a bit much for for me to expound on typing this out in my phone.
Short version a 5.56 rifle is more versitile and easier for everyone to use and offers more contol over shot placement.
3of7 project on youtube recently did a few vids on shotguns, intermediate carbines, and pccs that are worth watching and cover similar ground.
DeleteForget if he covered, but both shotguns and 5.56 carbines are super loud indoors w/o earpo. 9mm 16" carbines similar to 22lr noise...
I’ve heard on good authority that the 5.56 is not a serious combat round and is for children. Stirring the pot here.
ReplyDeletehttps://michaelyon.locals.com/post/2585152/no-american-should-own-an-ar-15
all good food for thought. on the one hand, antifa types aren't known for their bravery under fire. yet even when guns are going off they don't believe they can be killed b/c they haven't in the thousands of hours of call of duty games. kyles mission kill gave up the fight quickly but even then others were joining the fray like zombies or something. one side of me says pull the fal out of the safe. one thing for sure, when 7.62 gets barking everyone listens. but then i don't want to kill some poor sap in his bed three blocks away when it zips right thru the skinnies. and then again, my best friend was killed by a drunk that took 12 rounds of 357 mag to the chest and had to be wrestled to the ground by backup cops. bastard lived another 20 years in prison, paralyzed, but alive. so i run the triple tap drill, 2 chest shots then one in the grape, repeat as needed. what do they call that drill?...i also run one with multiple targets engaged 2 to the chest each, then go back w/ head shots on each.
ReplyDelete10-12" 7.62x39 nearly as loud as 18"+. 308...
Delete"I do agree with Anon (above), I think it's time to temporarily retire the 5.56 and check the zero on the 7.62X51."
ReplyDeleteThat was me.
The reason? What we're seeing more of, locally, is "mechanized infantry." We're in a semi-rural area, on the edge of "more rural" so there's not much within reasonable walking range, nor is there convenient parking from which casual, random foot traffic might reasonably emanate. There are reports of 3-4 BGs arriving in a vehicle; while 5.56 is entirely adequate for dealing with dismounts out to about 300 meters (assuming one employs ammunition suitable for the task), it does not do nearly as well against "Chevrolet armor" at driveway-gate distance
7.62x51 does. It is also just as successful against dismounts, and at 250 meters farther than 5.56 should that become necessary.
My preference would be for something akin to 6.5 Creedmoor, or a suitable 6-7 MM cartridge with about 80% of the 7.62X51's energy and effective range, accompanied by, hopefully, greater magazine capacity than 7.62X51. All those other cartridges, with the possible exception of 243 Winchester, however, fail the "Country Store Test" in which one examines the ammunition on the shelf of a remote backwoods sundries dispensary 40+ miles from more traditional high-volume purveyors of ammunition. "308-Something" is almost always there, perhaps not in the manufacturer, grain weight or bullet design most preferable, but something that will fit the rifle and work in it. Sometimes, despite one's best effort to avoid it, the logistics train can be woefully short.
5.56 is also probably there, with, again, the same availability limitations; the issue is, though, that ammunition in "308-Something" can withstand a performance efficiency loss better than 5.56. That "308-Something" also works in my highly portable, and nearly always present, takedown BLR, and offers opportunity for success in more tasks than 223 Remington, is a plus.
as to shotguns, i ran one for home defense/house clearing right up until a corrections officer showed me how fast a crim can take one away from me, even when i knew it was coming. they train on that drill in prison. he also taught me to take corners with my handgun held close in to my chest, not at arms length/easy to snatch. old habits die hard, more ways than one.
ReplyDeleteTake a look at 300blk. It's a 30 caliber projectile, but its effective range is only within 200 yards. I tend to think of it as the semi-auto version of a 30-30.
ReplyDeleteDitto. Designed for heavier bullets to run sub-sonic so its quiet when suppressed. You'll still have plenty of stopping power up close or out to 100+ yds, and if you don't like factory ammo you can run a hot load if you reload shells.
Delete@MrGarabaldi - I'm sure you know, but a gentle reminder that .308 and 6.5Creedmore are AR-10 platform, whereas 6.8SPC is AR-15.
ReplyDeleteAnother AR option that gives .30-30 like performance is .350 Legend.
My choice in the AR platform has been 6.8SPC since it was developed to give good performance from a carbine length rifle. That is has decent performance at intermediate ranges is a bonus. Doesn't meet the country store requirement, but that's why I have other options (Marlin 336 at the top of that list).
The performance you outline is why I'm giving the Grendel a hard look.
DeleteSlightly better than .308 external ballistics, good capacity, good SD bullets.
The 6.8 is better optimised for a carbine, CQB, and the bolt life will be better. The 6.5 is ,IMHO, more versitile, more availble, and better at distance. The two things that are stopping me are $$ and i have been looking at 6 ARC
"not in a place to add x51 to the logistics. I will have to concentrate on placement."
ReplyDeleteThat was me. I agree with many of the points brought up in this supplemental post. When I originally retired I felt financially comfortable. Between normal levels of inflation and the current regime my $$ situation has changed. Having to be smarter about expenses with less margin for error. In my rural wooded area I agree a heavier caliber would be great. But adding a rifle, mags ammo etc..at this point is not practical. My compromise is I've been stocking heavier bullet weight 5.56 in 75/77 grain from reputable sources when it's on sale.When we have to go to the city for med or particular stores I've changed my EDC. I've gone from a G26 to a G34. Switched to 147 grain jhp and usually 3 spare mags. I decided that works for my circumstances balancing $$ and capabilities. I've also set up the option for training with .22 to allow more practice at significantly less expense. YMMV but I feel comfortable for 95% of likely scenarios I might face. The other 5% will just have to be a bad day.
First, I am *not* shilling for these people, I bought one of these for a Mossberg 500 hoping it do what the name implies, it most assuredly does. Suffice to say it makes using a shotgun for any purpose, including home defense, much more tenable. NOT cheap, but quality and reliability do come with a price... Take note this is the one with a folding option. FAB Defense Mossberg 500 Collapsible Folding Recoil Reduction Stock GL-Shock + Grip
ReplyDelete7.62x39 or. 300blk can do everything. .308 can do w/in 300-400 yards and do so more efficiently -- .308 is often too much gun/excess power being near .30-06 levels. And beyond 400-500 yards flatter shooting cartridges do what .308 can do better. .300blk was also designed for short barrels, but kaboom risk potential w/ 5.56 inter-CHAMBERability...
ReplyDeleteVs longer-range cartridges w/ better ballistics, .308 is cheaper and arguably has more reliable/proven semi-auto weapon systems and mags... So for a 400-750 yard envelope, .308 remains king for general purpose combat use, but all ROL self defense should occur much closer than that and longer range use does allow for a full power bolt action rifle standalone or supplement to an intermediate caliber carbine.
Yes, 7.62x39, .300blk and .30-30 are all ballistically similar.
Peter knows what he was shot w/ but in Vietnam, most GIs were shot w/ steel core FMJ 7.62x39. Modern bimetal lead core is relatively more devastating w/ fmr combloc country soft points generally being most effective combloc option, more consistently effective than their hollow points. Hornady makes a polytip offering that's devastating.
Biden Russian ammo ban will make 7.62x39 more expensive but pre-covid 9mm and 7.62x39 ball/FMJ were both similarly priced at 20 cents per round range, which was 1/3 cheaper than 5.56 and even less expensive Vs .308 and .300blk.
And 3of7 Project, fmr SEAL, on youtube recently had some good vids regarding shotguns (con) and pistol caliber carbines (pro) for home defense weapons that I broadly agree with.
*Peter forgot to mention 3of7's principal is God-fearing and has used his youtube channel to spread the gospel including sharing his personal story of redemption and salvation, in addition to his main guns and fitness content. Worth checking out if you haven't.
DeleteWarrior poet also unabashedly references God and faith but haven't seen quite to the extent of 3of7, but is nevertheless appreciated especially relative to devil worshiping Karl of InRange/Forgotten weapons... Folks refer to his partner-in-crime Ian as "gun jesus" -- and i've long ago unsubscribed from them...
Point being and not a Catholic, but I agree with archbishop Vigano that we're in a legit battle of good vs evil in these times, so applaud anyone bravely planting their flag on the side of good -- and one of the reasons I appreciate your blog as well.
Faced with cartel drug-running 4WD fence-busters sporting tires filled with Fix-a-Flat, and concrete-reinforced pipe bumpers, we opted to switch from .223 to .308.
ReplyDeleteFaced with such a threat, we weren't trying to make holes in just the paint job, we wanted to be able to make holes in the drivers.
It was worth the weight penalty.
Whether we're talking sagebrush or sheetrock, adequate .30 caliber rounds have been turning "cover" into "concealment" for 120 years.
YMMV.
The US Military recently spent a lot of money looking at why the 5.56, particulary 855 green tip, was performing so poorly due to overpenetration (not surprising since it is an LAP round). Long story short, it was the lack of tumbling on penetration. Only about one in three rounds would tumble before exiting. In the field, operators were already grabbing all the MK262 77gr they could get their hands on because the word was it worked great. When tested by the ordnance people, sure enough, it was only mildly understablized in M4 barrel lengths and definitely understabilized in MK18 barrels. No worry, this made it tumble and give good lethality even with lower velocity. This is why the original 55gr 193 rounds were known for being highly lethal out of the original 1:12 barrels of the M16. They were barely stable. But the Army, in its infinite wisdom to want armor piercing at 500m, specified 1:7 twist and the 855 round.
ReplyDeleteSo the answer is that a lot of people have been offed by the 5.56, and sharp operators are using the 77gr Mk262 to get a round that tumbles every time it hits.
Personally, I'm watching the new 6.8 Common Cartridge roll out and LMAO. An 80,000 psi cartridge, a 13 lb rifle that *requires* a suppressor, a cartridge that weighs as much as 7.62x51 because they can't get the polymer ones made fast enough. The military could have adopted the 6mm ARC and gotten something with better than 243 Winchester ballistics for minimal cost, and better than 7.62x51 ballistics at 1000 yards, all in re-barreled, re-bolted M4s with new mags or, even better, the HK416 series.
@Riverrider, I believe you're referring to the Mozambique drill - https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/the-mozambique-drill-a-history-and-how-to/
ReplyDeleteVery useful post! And the discussion is great!
ReplyDeleteBut the Rittenhouse 'situation' was in Kenosha, not Waukesha. Waukesha comes to mind easily due to the feral nutbag who used a 3,500 lb. weapon to kill six and maim 60 others. But Rittenhouse earned his stripes in Kenosha.
Funny, with over 116 years in use, untold scoped and lever-action rifles and ammunition available in almost every store, I guess the city folks forgot about .30-06 and the older .30-30 meat-calibers.
ReplyDeleteWith everything being situation-dependent you might be pushed into an area like a claymore, Front Toward Enemy and overpenetration is not enough, or as overwatch or roadblock duty.
Taking a knee and dumping a D-clip at family jewel level might not clear a street of a mob, but will make a large statement.
@Dad29: Oops! Thanks for pointing that out. I've fixed it.
ReplyDelete