Thursday, November 20, 2025

No, this wasn't self-defense

 

I note the ongoing argument over whether a Michigan resident was defending himself, or acting recklessly, when he fired at intruders.


Sivan Wilson, 17, was with six other mainly teenagers when the group broke into Dayton Knapton’s garage in White Lake shortly after 1 a.m. July 8, authorities said.

Knapton, 24, got an alert from his home security system, grabbed a .9mm gun, ran outside and fired two shots into the garage through a windowless door, striking Wilson, according to prosecutors and cops.

As the group fled, Knapton fired five more shots before going back into his house, reloading his gun and returning outside, according to a statement by the Oakland County Prosecutor’s Office.

Another teenager in the group also was shot in the leg.

. . .

“This defendant crossed the line by firing outside his home at fleeing persons,” prosecutor Karen McDonald said of Knapton. “His actions not only took a life but potentially endangered the surrounding community by firing his weapon into the night.”


There's more at the link.

Laws differ in the 50 States, but legally there's one principle that generally has to be clearly visible before a shooting can be ruled self-defense:  namely, that there has to be a clear, imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or serious injury to the person defending himself.  In this case, it's immediately obvious that this did not exist, because:

  1. The shooter could not actually see the people at whom he was shooting.  He fired through a closed door without any windows.  He could not have known whether his targets were armed, or whether they intended to pose any physical threat to him at all.
  2. The shooter went on to fire at fleeing people - their backs to him, running away as fast as they could, presumably with their hands clearly visible.  They could not have posed a threat to him under those circumstances.

Mr. Knapton may have been angry at having been repeatedly burgled in the past, and may have been afraid or upset at finding it happening again:  but there's no evidence at all that he was actually threatened, or faced any real danger of assault, injury or death.  Under the circumstances, I don't see how a claim of self-defense can be made to stick.

Some states (for example, Texas) allow one to use lethal force in defense of one's property, not just one's life, under certain circumstances.  However, one has to be very careful not to take that as a carte blanche to do whatever one wishes with intruders, whether they're accidental or deliberate.  If there is no physical threat, one has every chance of being indicted for using more force than necessary to remove them.  Frankly, I think that's the way it should be.  Our response should be proportionate to the threat.  Tragedies occur every year when a homeowner's response is not proportionate, such as this case in Indiana or this one in Texas.  One has to draw a line, and in most cases our laws do just that.  We can't use a firearm when our lives are not in danger (for example, to stop a fleeing thief who's not a threat, and is only trying to get away).

Those of us who espouse the right to self-defense, and the right to keep and bear arms, need to think about this often.  Our actions and reactions may provide ammunition to those wanting to take away those rights.

Peter


36 comments:

  1. I agree - killing someone who has no means to harm you is murder. Your fear may be justified but your actions are held accountable.

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  2. One wouldn’t think a .9mm bullet would do any real damage. Reporters!

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  3. Sorry, no. If a group of armed thugs (or even one) comes onto my property and attempt to break-in, they'll die. I would vote to acquit if on this guy's jury. It seems most people now believe we should allow these criminals more chances to do harm to innocent people by allowing them to flee if they are unsuccessful in their thievery. Put the animals down and be done with it. They obviously value things over their own life.

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  4. This jackoff prosecutor probably wanted him to invite them inside for tea and cake.....

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  5. I often reflect on the history of my forebears here in Texas, in the days of the Comanche. I'm not sure we are not living those days again in real time. Our laws are designed for supposedly less savage times than those that exist.

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  6. Shall we consider the justification used when police fire at escaping "suspects"? That he, she, it is a danger to the community, as evidenced by past actions? That refusal to obey orders to stop, that resisting arrest warrants deadly force? What other than the closed door makes this different? And why would the home invaders close the door; maybe to hide what they planned to do?
    If we're going to argue a case without all the facts, then we should include all possibilities, no?

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  7. If they are fleeing with my gold and my children or I will starve, I will shoot them in the back, even though they are not an imminent threat.

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  8. While I agree that it was not self defense, were I on a jury I would vote to not convict. Why? 1. They were inside his home without his permission. 2. There were more of them than there were of him. 3. Fleeing felons. 4. We, as a society, have been entirely too soft on crime for too long. Demonstrating to the prosecutors and the courts that we aren't going to sit idly by any longer might influence their actions.

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    1. Just something to consider - every time I have read of a similar case (black killed while stealing/attempting to steal a White's property, vehicle, etc.), the thief's relatives always seem to protest the shooting by declaring "X didn't deserve to die" for the man's tools/tv/car etc. "X's life was worth more than whitey's stuff."

      But what I never see is any understanding of what said 'stuff' represents - time, labor, memories, hopes, savings, etc. Not to mention violation of one's sense of safety and security in one's own home. Viewed on a larger scale, that type of 'logic' is the justification for decriminalizing theft and shoplifting nationwide. And that has led to vastly more theft and entitlement, which we all decry and pay for.

      Granted, some (not all) 'stuff' can be replaced, and a life cannot. But 'stuff' is not just things - a man's property has intrinsic value - and in some situations represents the difference between having a roof over one's head, having the tools to do one's job, or feeding one's family.

      Fwiw, I too would not convict the shooter - at least not for murder.

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  9. No, that certainly was not self-defense. But those kids were in a place they shouldn’t have been. Deep down, many of us believe that if things like this were overlooked, there would be less things like this happening.

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  10. The door comment I have a problem with. So what if he could not see through the door. They were in inside his house. At night. How could he know if they were getting ready to shoot him? They were already breaking the law. That would tell me they might break another and shoot me through the door. About Texas law about protecting property. The property might to be "worth" a human life, but what about the time you spend working hard to buy that item? They are not stealing property, they are stealing your life (time) that you cannot get back. How long did it take for you to work to pay for a car? Pay restitution? Hardly ever works they don't usually have money. Harsh but it must be to live in a civil society.

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  11. Shooting robbers and thieves is the only way to reduce their prevalence. If robbery is not immediately and lethally dangerous to the robbers, then "the rules" exist only to encourage robbery.

    Restoring and maintaining a civil society has a higher precedence in the stack of moral choices.

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  12. A US highway used to run past the farm where I grew up. One time a car pulled into the driveway, stopped at the end of the drive, and two guys got out and started casing the place. My grandma stepped outside with her rifle and they got back in their car and left. Word must have gotten around, as that was the end of 'adventurers' stopping by.

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  13. Seven people entered/broke into his domicile (house and garage) with out his permission committing a felony. They did not announce their intentions but on previous occasions the home owner has had his possessions taken. He did not know the intent of the intruders but there were more of them than him. He knew of them through his alarm system and may have heard the intruders but not have seen them directly. He and his domicile were being invaded by persons unknown to him of which he did not know their intentions. In a normal person this would have produced a fear response. He armed himself for protection from the superior number of intruders. Seven on one can be fatal to the victim. one on one can be fatal.

    Does the home owner victim have wait to be assaulted in his own home before defending himself? Does committing one felony lead to others? Is there a heightened sense of power to harm when in a hunting pack? This was a seven to one attack. The perpetrators made the decision to attack his property and possibly him. He stopped the attack prior to the and him part. We don't know but the perpetrators elected of their own free will to attack the victim.

    He did not ask to be attacked he was an available victim for the pack of perpetrators. Are the perpetrators being charged with murder also as they were at the scene and were the cause of the shooting. This is a righteous shoot to say otherwise after the fact is to place the rights of the perpetrators above the right of the victim. Is the wolf pack absolved of wrong doing because the sheep was armed?

    Spin Drift

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  14. Just speaking of my small understanding of Michigan law, If your garage is attached to your house and allows entry into the house you may deal with an intruder as if he were in your house. Michigan law requires a presumption of innocence if a stranger is shot breaking into your house, if you’re related or an ex partner then you better be able to prove your innocence. You cant use deadly force on an individual who is in a detached building or your car unless you are being attacked. If you are in your car and someone tries to car jack you its ok to readjust their internal pressure.
    While there are arguments that the curtilage should be treated the same as the dwelling, its not in Michigan. This is just what I was taught when I got my CPL.

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  15. the thuggies valued his stuff more than they valued their own lives.

    Why didn't the shooter bring spare mags?
    Hard "Not guilty", but you all know you would have to lie like hell to get on the jury.

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  16. For it is written,

    "If a thief is caught breaking in at night and is struck a fatal blow, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; but if it happens after sunrise, the defender is guilty of bloodshed."

    Exodus 22:2-3a (NIV)

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    1. Thats fucked up. What the hell does it matter whether it is night or day. Same deed is being done.

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    2. Primitive societies won't have the artificial lighting that we do. It's a consideration of visibility.

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  17. If I'm not mistaken, Texas law allows the use of deadly force to protect property. And frankly, I think that's a good thing.

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  18. Sadly this is the truth. Shooting at fleeing criminals is illegal.... unfortunately. If more of them were killed REGARDLESS of the circumstances perhaps we'd see fewer criminals. So be aware of the laws and the willingness of Prosecutors to destroy an honest person to protect criminals. The System is designed and intended to serve evil and harm otherwise good people. And it's been that way for along time.

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  19. Part 1
    I'm not putting my name on this for fear of future events and possible prosecutors. :) God willing it never comes up.

    I have no issue with in defense of life. I used to say that if they are running that's a no go. However given what I have seen in the last 20 years, I have begun to question it.

    1st. as someone else said in the comments, it doesn't stop the cops and it's legal for them if the people could continue to be a threat. Even then it's not always... we had a cop in charleston sc go to prison for shooting a man in the back, but he was unarmed and had always been unarmed so not a threat to others in the moment. If I have already shot one and or wounded them, I have come to worry about retribution later. Law enforcement is mostly useless nowadays and it was never designed to protect you. In many ways I am more worried about dealing with law enforcement than the criminals. Luckily it mostly seems in my local area that criminals still mostly have more to fear from law enforcement than citizens. Deep south attitudes.

    2nd. Again as someone has commented, my property is my life in some ways. I shed blood, sweat and tears along with years of my life to purchase that stuff. I had a car stolen in 2004 or there about. Between the car, its contents and what I had to spend to replace it's functionality, and the replacement was a worse car than the one stolen, it cost me about a half a year of revenue. Six months of my life flushed down the drain because of some bastard that thought it was cool to steal my car out of the mall parking lot. Cops spent an hour looking for my car in the parking lot because they didn't believe, me, my wife, or my mother and sister that we had parked it where we had and that it really was missing. Never heard hide nor hair of it again. Disappeared for good. Had 1500 dollars of tools stolen out of a shed 10 feet behind the house in a place I lived in/rented many years ago. We knew in general who did it, owner hired crew to clean out yard and it went missing that day. Cops said, "did you see who did it?" I said "no but it had to be one of them". Cops said.. "that's not enough to go on.." grrrrrrr

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  20. Part 2
    our society is falling apart with non enforcement of the law when it comes to violence and property. I have seen and heard of people being beat to within an inch of their lives and the only thing that kept them alive was the person beating them stopped. Person that beat them got a misdemeanor charge. Person beat now has permanent damage to themselves. It makes no sense.

    Area's of the country that have high theft rates have entire chains such as CVS, Walgreens, Walmart, etc.... closing stores in the worst area's as they can not make a profit there. People walk out of stores with bags and carts of stolen stuff and it's the store and police policy that they are not allowed to chase them down or try to stop them. Even where I live there are huge locked cases for many of the products in Walmart, even fricken underwear. What the hell!

    I still observe the law, both because it is the Law and because under a lot of situations if I can stop what's happening I don't think a bicycle in my yard is worth shooting someone over.

    If stuff ever comes to times we fear where there is no real rule of law. I'm much more of the mind that it's like a roach motel. They check in but don't check out. You threaten me or mine and you will instantly never threaten anyone again and if you were with the person threatening, well you should have chosen your friends better, it was a bad life choice.

    I like the harder stance trump has taken on enforcement. Enforcing laws that have needed to be enforced for decades. Though I fear he has already gone to far in many ways. It is looking like lots of people with legitimate green cards that are here perfectly legally working have been caught up in the drive to get rid of illegals. I have seen reports of multiple lawsuits being filed over instance like this with the largest being the Korean's working in Georgia, helping to upgrade a factory under one of trumps initiatives to bring investment into the country. Serious egg on face for him.

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  21. Many comments here demonstrate how out-of-touch so many thoughtless citizens have become. The attitude that says this guy should have just let whoever triggered his home alarm pillage and destroy his property without consequence because well... "the perps weren't threatening him" is beyond foolish. Those of you that sit there all comfortable and safe in your easy chair (at least for now), pontificating about how civilized and understanding you are, need to wake up. Incidents such as this, where a gang of thugs, criminals, rapists - a bunch of spoiled little "Momma's boys", whatever - are on the rise, and YOU must quickly learn - and fully understand - they don't give a tinkers damn about you, your family, or your property. And that's just one of our growing problems you don't seem to be facing. Good grief, we are facing a massive invasion by a savage culture that will stone your wife or daughter to death just for exposing their HAIR in public. Don't believe it? Then take a few minutes and check it out. Another sad reality the passive and peace-loving humanitarians need to realize... Earth presntly has a population of almost EIGHT BILLION today, all needing food and shelter, and they will try to get it one way or another, to Hell with you and the Law. Housing and feeding the growing horde of lawbreakers in that mass of humanity (in prisons, till they change their ways?) would bankrupt us. There's an almost endless list of truly hard things we are about to face, and just one of them is what to do with those who won't live within the law. I could go on, but Peter won't let this get published, so I'm just blowing off a bit of steam. Al least he knows my side of the issue.

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    1. Why would I not let this be published? You have your opinion, and the right to have it, just as I do. You aren't advocating that we break the law, even though you criticize it. I see no reason to censor that.

      On the other hand, I do hope people can remember their common humanity. We're not shooting at paper targets, or at animals. They may be criminals, they may be thoroughly evil, but to take a human life without the unavoidable, overriding NEED to do so diminishes our humanity, IMHO. YMMV, of course.

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    2. I truly believe that if more people would kill the thugs that would perpetrate criminal acts on innocents, we would have less of it. I want to live in a society that will not tolerate the animals that have no consideration of other's property or life. I have nothing in common with that type of humanity. While in the military, I had a duty to kill people that had not harmed me in any way. How's that for humanity?

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    3. The saying goes, Peter that the police are there to protect criminals from the public.

      As law and order breaks down, we see this demonstrated. If there is hope of the criminals being caught and punished so they might reform and make amends, then yes, people should show restraint.

      If, however, things are such there is no longer that hope and the criminals continue to victimize the innocent, eventually the citizens will apply the punishment. You yourself have told stories of this from Africa IIRC.

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  22. It should be legal to shoot any invader on your property at night. It's not, but it should be.

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  23. The home owner was defending his property. He is not guilty. Yes, I live here in Texas. Go read up on the Joe Horn incident where he was adjudged not guilty by a grand jury. Remember, not guilty is not innocent but the law is on the side of the home owner.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy

    The thieves are guilty. If the home owner did not protect himself then the chances of the thieves coming back is high, very high.

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  24. What's the saying? "You value my stuff more than your life"? Maybe if more criminals were properly admonished by the (lack of) justice system; if the justice system was as concerned about the victim as the criminal, then the need to eliminate the criminal on the premises would not be needed. Something other than jail for all crimes is needed. Perhaps chop off the secondary hand for first felony offense; the primary for second. Let a prosthetic replacement be a reminder.

    Anyway - right or wrong - another thief is eliminated. Maybe his friends will take note (or maybe they'll revisit the victim for retribution).

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    1. Agreed.. Unless we want South Africa and Zimbabwe to find second homes in the US

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  25. Approved exceptions: Rural properties where the owner has a backhoe or hogs.

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  26. Thanks Peter. We all appreciate and treasure a truly open forum.

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  27. It should not be illegal to kill fleeing criminals if they're still on your property, especially if you got them on camera.

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  28. The only thing he did wrong was miss too many times. But I guess we all could stand to brush up on our marksmanship.

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