Karl Denninger thinks so - and alleges that manufacturers and dealers have effectively conspired to hide the real ongoing cost of their vehicles from purchasers.
I refuse to purchase a vehicle where the "infotainment" screen, if the electronics for it or the screen itself, fails, it is single-sourced at the dealer, it costs $2,000 and the car will not operate reasonably without it because, for example, I cannot select heat, air conditioning and defrost without that screen.
. . .
Likewise manufacturers think they have a right to charge you $300 or more for a key -- why? Because they have locked up the capacity to reprogram them. That's unacceptable too; never mind what happens if I lose the key while on vacation? Now I must be towed to a dealer -- what if the closest one is a hundred miles away? You think I should pay $300 on top of a $200+ tow charge for a $20 or $50 key? No.
The manufacturers and dealers both think they are entitled to screw people in short and they've been doing so on an increasing basis for the last couple of decades.
Look at one other example from that video ITSELF: "I have a 2024 Tahoe that won't start because the battery died. The replacement battery costs $340...."
Ok Mr. Dealer: Why did you suborn the production of a vehicle, and accept it for sale as a dealer, when the battery costs $340? You know damn well batteries are wear items and the customer will have to change it. You may think he's stupid but perhaps he thinks that the battery should be $150 tops and it would be if you didn't have all that start-stop and similar crap on the vehicle! Oh by the way, let me guess -- the system has to be calibrated when its replaced too and you think you have a right to force the customer to do that as well at an additional $100 or more cost without which the car will not start instead of the customer taking 5 minutes to swap it in a WalMart parking lot with a couple of wrenches like is the case for all four vehicles I currently maintain.
"People want reliable transportation they can afford, not $80,000 pickups with features they don't need."
Well then, Mr. Dealer, why did you permit the manufacturers to make the latter rather than the former?
Oh, I know the answer: You believed you were entitled to screw people rather than being in business to serve people with reliable products they want to buy at a rational price with rational operating and servicing costs, not a box full of $10,000 surprises when the transmission or engine blows up three months out of warranty or the "stereo" stops working, its proprietary and cannot be swapped for something else, and because it is tied to essential vehicle functions like the heater, A/C or defroster, forces the customer to pay $2,500 to have to have replaced. The root of the problem is that you think you are entitled to do that to customers without disclosing it up front because if you had he or she would have never bought the vehicle in the first place and you knew damn well every single vehicle on your lot has those sort of forced and undisclosed costs built into them on purpose.
Why do you think plenty of people call your line of business "stealers" rather than "dealers"?
There's more at the link. Highly recommended reading.
Here's the video he mentions. It's well worth watching, and warns that the entire US automotive industry is facing disaster. If the facts and figures the narrator provides are correct . . . he's not wrong.
Food for thought, particularly if you're considering the purchase of a new or used vehicle anytime soon.
Peter
27 comments:
I remember watching a video a few weeks ago, where it pointed out that older cars had a headlight & a turn signal. If either of those burned out, a few dollars at the parts store, and swap in the parking lot. Mid-90's the headlight & turn signal were put into an enclosure, but the same thing applied. Replace in the parking lot. He then showed the integrated headlight, turn signal & running lamp for a current model car, and noted that you couldn't replace anything. If something burned out, you had to replace the entire system costing $1,400.00 + installation. Someone is truly gouging the consumers here.
To add onto your list, Mercedes started this but other manufacturers have adopted it. You enable car functions (parts) for a yearly license fee (rent). Don't pay the fee, and that function (part) doesn't work although it gets dragged around inside your vehicle. Stated another way, you get a 'basic' car, and any 'luxury' items (wireless key, seat warmer, etc) are enabled with a license fee (rent). And that is what the manufacturers are after. A steady yearly rental fee coming in to support the bottom line.
Lastly, lets note the "always on" requirement for current vehicles to report everything back to the manufacturer via cell phone. If the vehicle cannot report back, the vehicle shuts down (Oregon lumber example with F-150). Data reported back is then sold and used so you are the product being sold, instead of a consumer using a vehicle you purchased.
The only way I see out of it is to purchase a vehicle before 2021, when the manufacturers started putting these headaches into the new vehicles.
Steve
He's blaming a lot on the dealerships, but most of the blame should go to the govt and the greenies/commies with their over-regulation (like the start/stop thing). That, and the fact that every car built by one of the big three also carries a $10,000+ price tag to cover the union and retirement costs that all of the big three negotiated for. So there's that.
Around here there is a place that takes 30-40 year old diesel trucks and rebuilds them to like-new condition. One of those would definitely fit my bill for a good "last truck I'll ever need to buy" type of truck. The real trick is a) convincing my wife to trade in my 15 year old truck for a 40 year old truck, and b) convincing a bank to loan me $50k or more to buy said 40 year old truck.
Before long we'll be able to compete with Cuba in keeping 40 and 50 year old vehicles running with whatever works.
Now you know why farmers with John Deere equipment are so grumpy when that equipment breaks.
While my 20-year old Honda Element was getting a new transmission (paid for by Car Shield) I got a "modern" rental for a few days. I had to make an overnight drive, and the first thing I noticed was that the "data screen" backlight did not work. In order to work any of the functions I had to turn on the dome light and try to make out the LCD images by their reflections. Fortunately I did not need heat, a/c, or the radio. In daylight I considered the thing a needless distraction, at night, it would have been a violation of the Distracted Driving laws. I will keep my Element until I no longer feel competent to drive (I'm 73, and in damn good shape for the shape I'm in!). I want no part of these overly complex, overpriced toys!
As Don points out above, part of the problem is government mandates.
That said, car manufacturers aren't being forced to make fully integrated "whole enchilada on a chip" controllers; that's a financial choice they are making to reduce both production and assembly costs.
The real problem for consumers: what is the alternative? Is there a car on thee market (in the US, anyway) that isn't integrated to perdition and back?
Every day I get more grateful that I'm driving a 2005 absolutely stripped down Tacoma. Manual transmission. Cam chain rather than belt. Crank windows. All the little ports for switches have plastc blanks rather than switches. And the seat belt buzzers have all broken. The radio sorta' works, but there's nothing worth listening to on the radio.
JWM
I'm probably not the only retired industrial electrician that has cussed Allen-Bradley up and down and sideways for requiring a software license to be purchased and periodically renewed to do almost any repair or process tweaking operation concerning their variable frequency drives, which are ubiquitous in bespoke packaging machinery and industrial robots in food/material processing. The process that's interrupted usually costs too much in lost productivity to quibble with Allen-Bradley's obstructive "customer service" policies and they know it.
Like every other damn "service" these days it's all about producing a stream of income that's preferable to an outright sale on the income statement.
As for cars, the more needless complexity, the less serviceable used vehicles will be available down the road to the working class who can't afford to support new car dealers' lifestyles by buying out of their showrooms and paying through the nose for proprietary dealer technology
Good video. Boeing and the western defense industries have similar design, maintenance, and reliability issues.
Lots of higher costs are driven by government regulations. The entire move to electric vehicles and the stop start requirements are examples of that.
There hasn't been a $150 car battery in a while even at an auto parts company.
The complexity and the lack of dependability Of the complex systems is driving up costs of Ownership. The service techs are expected to be the kinda mechanic who could get the points/plugs/carburetor equipped car home And fix these Space Age wagon loads of interconnected sensors and fancy displays. ,I hope Simpler answers are coming.
Brought to you by the fedgov EPA regulations that forced the last lead mine in the US to close. Now only import lead- that has even more EPA regs. My last battery for a 05 Buick was about 250.....
and now people understand why some guy will spend a couple of years rebuilding a old car.
yup. there a reason why cars and trucks made in the 1960-70 are bringing the cash they do.
THEY WORK. and are simple to maintain as a rule. compared to anything made in the last 20 years that is. years ago when I was still working, my co worker was amazed to see me looking at SUVs made in the 1960-70s.
wind up windows ? why? was all he could say.
but getting a like new F-40 was more than I could afford.
I have a 2020 Colorado that needed a thermostat. Used to be a 5$ part that could be replace in 20 minutes. Cost was 1750$ out the door. that was not at a dealership either. If I could find an older truck with no rust I would buy it in a heart beat.
Exactly right. My grandson drives a Toyota pickup older than he is. The only time he drives an American car is in a demo derby.
Not just cars, every appliance in the kitchen has a computer in it. They break before they're a decade old. We used to own fifty and sixty years old refrigerator and freezers. I'm sure they're still running faithfully somewhere.
Bingo. What are my alternatives?
Can I even find a "dumb car" manufacturer that I can import into the US, new or used?
Wind up window, why?
Because on my last car, 20 years old, the window control went out. "Simple fix" is replace the switch.
But that wasn't it. They were at $1732 in parts, still hadn't isolated where in the system the failure was. I traded that in for a 10 year old model.
How much of that cost is because it has to be shipped in from China?
I have a 2011 Hyundai Accent - bought new for $13,500 and gets 35 mpg. Simplest car I could find. Also a 1997 Toyota Tacoma, bullet proof, 262k miles on the original clutch. At my age I'll probably never need to buy another vehicle again.
Will not buy a vehicle that is less than 10 years old. By 10 years, you can look it up, find out what the problems were, and decide if they are problems you want to deal with or not. Suspect that in another ten years, that number will be 20. Just do not want to buy anything made after 2015, because I can't work on it myself, and the parts are too expensive. I'm not a gearhead. I'm a mom raising a family on a tight budget. I can use a YT video to replace a distributor cap but it's not a hobby I actually enjoy. Just... not gonna spend the money if I don't have to. Not sure what I'll do when we get into territory where I can't find anything under 300k miles. Get into restoring vintage cars? Eventually somebody's going to figure out how to import the Toyota 10k Hilux trucks that the rest of the world has access to. I really want one of those. How much to throw a shell and some junkyard seats on the back and make it a minivan?
@anon: wind-up windows means the motor never goes bad and leaves you with a stuck window! I'd pay extra for those, at this point in my life. Taking a door apart to try and replace those motors is a total nightmare. I've never gotten a door to go back together properly.
@master diver
Had a similar experience: rented a Chevy Malibu for a couple days. Took me like 15 minutes to locate the effing *parking brake* because it was no longer a pedal or a lever on the center console: it was a button. 100% electronic. WTF are you supposed to do if you have to have that thing towed because something electrical broke? You cannot do the ghetto thing we always did: tow strap and Dad's truck. You can't even get out and push it in your own driveway. No way to turn off the parking brake if the battery's dead. And heaven help you if the electric goes out while you're driving. Did you have to pull over on a slope? How do you engage the parking brake now? That does not seem safe.
Got a new battery and tires rotated on our 2017 4runner for $206 just three weeks ago. So glad we moved rural.
These technological-enslavements are why deep in the Rastapopoulos workshop lurks a pre-1970's set of wheels. Something that is simple, not dependent on connectivity, and can be fixed by Rastapopoulos.
The lawnmower is more complex and demanding.
Not that we are Luddites, but rather that a non-tech option is kept available.
Recommended practice.
Anybody else remember O'Bummer's used car apocalypse? Ever wonder why he really did it? Now you know.
A big push for "Right to Repair" laws being passed in various states is the manufacturers demanding their dealers must re-program anything electronic.
We had a 1985 Volvo 240 wagon. It ran like a top even after 20 years. However, a part supporting the window broke inside the door, the drivers seat fell apart years after being repeatedly kicked by small children, the clutch (oh so many clutches) wore quickly. The engine was running happily with 300K miles but the rest of the car was beginning to fall apart around it. Luckily, junkyards still had a ready supply of parts.
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