That's what the Australian Courier-Mail foresees. A tip o' the hat to our Australian reader Andrew for sending me the link to the article.
The future of face-to-face learning at Australia’s universities is in serious doubt as more institutions ditch old-school lectures in favour of full online or hybrid learning models.
While some students and staff are campaigning to save lectures from the chopping block, others in the sector say the train has already left the station and the future of universities is online as students “vote with their feet”.
The face-to-face debate reared its head again recently as Adelaide University students and staff protested what they claimed was a move away from in-person learning at Australia’s newest university – a claim the university continues to deny.
Meanwhile, Open University Australia helps potential students connect with more than 890 online degrees in response to changing student preferences.
University of South Queensland (USQ) Associate Professor Alice Brown has researched and written on the challenges and opportunities of online higher education learning, finding the ultimate determiner is the students themselves who routinely “vote with their feet”.
“There is a trend and phenomena of students becoming increasingly discerning about how they want to study and when they want to study,” Professor Brown said.
“If they are not offered an online option, then they will vote with their feet and go to courses that are fully online.”
. . .
The debate comes as a number of Victorian universities are now offering digital-only lectures, with most choosing not to reintroduce in-person models post-Covid.
RMIT environmental engineering student Ted Oldis, 24, said attending his university in-person was a toss-up decision he makes daily.
“If you’re trying to juggle work, friends and study you have to balance the convenience of the online lectures with attending in-person,” he said.
“If you don’t need the social aspect and you think the learning is the same, it honestly comes down to convenience, and more often than not it’s easier to do the online learning.”
Mr Oldis said he had toyed with attending as many lectures and tutorials as possible in-person this semester.
“This semester I made a conscious decision to attend every class and lecture I can in-person,” he said.
“I wanted to try to engage more and meet new people. But to be honest, I don’t feel it’s been worth it compared to doing the same stuff online.”
There's more at the link.
I have every sympathy with those students who are avoiding in-person classes and focusing instead on online and distance education. I hold four university qualifications, two of which I obtained through distance education only (i.e. by post) and two by part-time evening classes plus distance education. I can't say I felt in any way short-changed by not having the full "campus experience" of a full-time education. In fact, the professors in my Masters degree often said to us students that they preferred working with us as opposed to full-time students, because we'd already learned to fend for ourselves and earn a living, and didn't expect the world to provide everything to us on a platter. Comparing ourselves to the self-centered idle twits who infested that campus' post-graduate programs, it wasn't hard to see why they came to that conclusion.
Looking at the pro-Palestinian protests across many US universities over the past couple of years simply makes the contrast even starker. The only reason those students could carry on so irresponsibly (not to mention violently) is that they had parents and trust funds and bursaries to pay for their existence while they did so. The rest of us, who have to work for a living, may want to protest in favor of causes we support, but we can't afford to do so nearly as often or as long, because we know that our employers will kick us out and hire replacements who'll be willing to earn every dollar they pay us. We've grown up. Most of those students haven't.
I think American higher education would be a lot better off if we got rid of at least half the campuses in this country and fired all the professors who live in their academic cloud cuckoo land instead of in the real world. I'd also suggest that we fire every student who doesn't pass at least half their courses every year. No do-overs, no accommodations, no touchy-feely wishy-washy excuses. Unless there are truly exceptional circumstances to excuse them, they can pass, or get out. Why should my tax dollars be wasted on supporting them?
Grrr . . .
Peter
26 comments:
Won't be long before Max Headroom is given a professorship.
No, really, you don't think AI is going to totally replace these over-paid eggheads with their own opinions?
The State will not allow it! Expect all state university systems to start implementing non-teacher classes and degree programs first, tenured state employee's are expensive to retire with those pension funds and what-all.
I, too, got a degree via distance education. I read where a study had been done and distance learners were at a minimum equal to in-person learners due to motivation. It seems if you're going to struggle for an education you're going to take it seriously.
When my daughter went to college it seemed they marketed themselves on everything but the quality of education. Having people working a day job and getting an education at night would revolutionize education.
"I'd also suggest that we fire every student who doesn't pass at least half their courses every year."
When I was a fresher you had to pass two-thirds or you were out. In our third year it was not enough to pass: a narrow pass saw you given a lesser degree and a fond farewell. You had to pass handsomely to be admitted to fourth year.
For math and science at least it can be very good to have electronic lectures and in-person 'homework' sessions so that people can ask questions and get help in real time.
Unfortunately, they do in person lectures and electronic homework.
Me and my wife met on campus in the 70s. I later went to my MBA at a different university at night while working.
One thing though was my sons are in the late 30s and 40. We moved from California to the East Coast because of business in the 90s and found the schools bad. HS teachers, Admin, and school board could not be fixed. Me and my wife, ended up tutoring our sons through HS and teaching them to research everything.
We looked at colleges and decided Trade Schools were better for our sons since the time (2 years) and costs (about 1 year of college) were lower. The time to reach a 6 figure salary was 5 years with a solid career.
As another who finished his undergraduate education via distance learning while working full time I can’t disagree. The graduate level extension classes I took later were similar - evening and weekend classes for students holding down full time jobs. The average level of motivation and focus I saw was considerably higher than I remembered from my days as a full time student.
The lack of pressure to spend time on anything other than the class itself was also welcome. Oddly enough, students studying in their limited free time paying their own hard earned money to do so have little patience for their professors wasting time on unrelated social issues and virtue signaling.
"The only reason those students could carry on so irresponsibly (not to mention violently) is that they had parents and trust funds and bursaries to pay for their existence while they did so. "
Humbly disagree.
1) Many of the protesters were full time anarchists or paid by the day protesters.
2) Once the university has your tuition money, they don't give a damn if you attend class or not. No prof will ever send an email home to your parents saying Little Gerry did not submit his paper on time. Who knows how many students failed or got the Ivy League "Gentleman's B"
3) If online learning is comparable to the in class experience, why did standardized test scores drop during and after COVID?
Yes and when I gave some lectures at colleges, the older students tended to be more engaged because they saw real world applications of the lectures.
My AA, BA and MA were all done at “ night school” with many classes taught by practitioners in the field. As the AA and BA were earned at extensions on military bases it wasnt unusual to have a military lawyer teaching business law or the base psychologist or social worker teaching psych classes. One time my boss was concerned because the Base commander was calling me, a lowly Tsgt NCOIC of the civil engineering sheet metal shop, he was worried that he was out of the loop on some base project. In fact the Colonel was calling to offer me an extension on a paper in a class he was teaching, as he knew I was very involved with an IG inspection. Throughout my education experience, I was treated as an adult who had a life and responsibilities outside the classroom. The Colonel saved my behind at a military meeting one time, I made a very stupid comment that really embarrassed my boss and he was livid. At the end of the meeting the Colonel walked up to me, put his hand on my shoulder and said “ Joe, how are carol and the kids doing” then quietly “ sergeant, you should learn to think before you speak”
I find that I disagree with you to a certain extent, Peter.
I'm a professor at a small university in Kentucky. I've been teaching for close to thirty years, first part-time as a grad student, then full-time at a variety of one-year appointments until I landed a tenure-track job here in 2005.
My career spans the rise of internet-based distance education. I have taught classes online and in-seat, but never as a mail correspondence course. I much prefer in-seat. Here's why:
1) I get much better interaction with the students in face-to-face classes. I get to know them as people, chat with them before or after class, and note which ones are paying attention and which are not. This lets me know I need to offer help or encouragement to the kids who need a poke to head them in the right direction.
2) There is far less chance of misunderstanding with eyeball-to-eyeball conversation than with email. Facial expression and body language are important parts of communication. There is also no time lag in communications.
3) Most of my underclassmen lack the maturity and discipline needed to make distance education work. Having to come to class at a set time provides a framework to keep them on track. I have had better results with graduate students online, but there is still a noticable diffence in regard of motivation/discipline between in-seat and online with grad students as well.
4) One of the reasons students like on-line classes is that it easier to cheat. This is not a supposition on my part; it is confirmed by conversations with students and with hard experience. I give reading quizzes to my freshmen to get them into their assigned readings. I usually give these in-seat, but have sometimes had to post them online due to weather or other circumstances. Oddly enough, students that usually fail or do poorly on these quizzes in-seat get perfect scores online. It is also a lot harder to use AI to write your answer to an essay question when said essay is being handwritten in the classroom.
5) My colleagues who have embraced online instruction have let their standards slip. Many of them let the machine/program do the grading based on keyword algorithms or by spot-checking how many posts and replies a student has made without actually reading the posts concerned. Some have simply loaded classes devloped by Cengage or other educational resource providers. They have gone from being professors who know their stuff to being mere projectionists.
All that being said, I am not rejecting distance education entirely. If the student is self-motivated and wants to learn the material, it can be quite effective and the quality of the class is on par with in-seat. On the other hand, if the student is just looking to check the box and get the credit, they can skate by an actual education.
Of course, the same is true for a student on campus these days. I do agree entirely with your prescription for students who aren't cutting the mustard. Unfortunately, the admin folks want bums in seats (or fingers on keyboards) as long as the funding lasts. It is virtually impossible to fail out of college now.
I took some night classes that were held in the west Los Angeles federal building. I suspect that's not allowed any longer. One night we had a test scheduled while Iranian "students" were outside protesting one thing or another. We all had to park blocks away and make our way through the crowd to get to class. The two Iranians in our class were not too pleased with their countrymen. They, and we, had more important things to do than chant in the street about how downtrodden we were. I'm still somewhat surprised that we were let into the building.
Most lectures are not interactive (in the large classes, they can't be), so there is no value in all being in one room and quiet to hear them. It's better to watch recordings where you can pause and rewind.
A fantastic school organization would have the lectures recorded and then instructors, assistants and tutors available to handle questions in smaller groups (down to 1:1)
In High School, (mid '80s) I had a computer/physics teacher who did this. He had all his lectures on video tape and had a 'take a number' system during class hours (and before/after school, and lunch time) where he went around answering questions and grading assignments.
In 4th grade I went to a private school that did the paper equivalent of this, little booklets to read on each subject, followed by a short test
modern technology can make this much easier, and far more flexible.
David Lang
This approach requires that the student want to learn the material, but I would argue that if they don't, they aren't going to learn it the traditional way either.
Heh! I'd like to see an at-home dental school.
IMHO, science courses (the hard sciences) require labs which require buildings and look-over-your-shoulder instructors
@boron Even for things where you need hands-on practice, moving the lectures to recordings can be a good thing. The instructors who need to look over your shoulder while you practice now have additional time to do so. And students can go back and re-watch the lecture if practice shows they didn't understand something.
@Uchuck the Tuchuck I very much believe you when you say that most underclassmen don't have the discipline to handle self-paced studies. In part, that's because they have never done it. It takes practice.
If they don't learn to do it while at school, they will have to learn how to do it in the workplace. Better to learn while at school.
how big are your classes? are you teaching the classes with hundreds of students in the lecture? or small classes?
cheating and lazy grading are a problem, but at some point you have to accept that the students are cheating themselves. After they get their first job, their school grades cease to matter. Instructors getting lazy is a problem, it takes real effort to make good machine gradable tests (and essay tests are not machine gradable) But company HR and professional certification organizations have been doing this for a long time, college educators need to learn from them.
David Lang
I second this. Having taught by remote lecture and text-only, and helping in-person students deal with an on-line only course, I don't think that eliminating in person teaching is a good solution.
1. I teach best when I have interaction, meet eyes, and can see which students get it, which are close, and which need to be brought back to the topic (or tagged for in-person tutoring by me or a peer tutor). I need human responses to my points and jokes for me to do well as a teacher.
2. Other people phoning it in. Indeed. It is very tempting to set everything up, more or less, hit "unlock unit," and then go do other things while the students struggle, then glance at emails and deal with the problem. Or don't look at emails and send out a message "you are independent learners, you sort it out" or words to that effect.
3. AI instructor? AI answers, tailored to the class and topic. Why should students work when the prof isn't? Even using AI catcher or blocker software doesn't always work.
Perhaps I am an exception that I need live feedback from students in the flesh in order to do well. So be it.
TXRed
I agree with the others here talking about it depends on what kind of class, the big lecture classes have little to no reason to be in person, I can see and hear it all better on my wide screen monitor (especially if set up to be recorded and not just some camera in the back of the auditorium) then being packed in with 300 other people. MIT and probably many other schools now, record and have available for free many of their lectures. The Great Courses, formerly The Learning Company, sells hundreds of full college lecture courses taught by some very good professors. Prices are reasonable, especially if you wait for their often sales of 50-75% or more. $15 for 36 half hour lectures on the ancient civilizations prior to the Bronze Age Collapse is a good deal.
"No prof will ever send an email home to your parents saying Little Gerry did not submit his paper on time."
They can't even if they wanted to. That's a violation of the Federal Education Right and Privacy Act.
This is a typical "news" article written by an egghead who's never done a day's work in their life, picked up my lying weasel media scum who have also never done a day's work in their lives (hence they "studied" journalism). The end of in person eh? I'm sure that's fine for a lot of degrees, but how about Botany? Vet science? Agronomy? Soil Science? Animal Science? Ecology? Entomology?
Also, Universities need to be very careful what they wish for. If I'm forced to be a zoom student of xyz University, why wouldn't I just be
Sometimes you actually have to get your hands dirty (unless you're a "journalist" of course).
In person lectures were required when books were copied by scribes, became less so with the advent of movable type, and are (IMO) entirely unnecessary with the advent of the Internet and learning systems that can tailor the speed of presentation to the ability and tested responses of the student.
When I was at Penn State University Park in 84-86 the entire Sophomore course load in the EE major was done with taped lectures and a live TA (usually Chinese) for recitation.
Hey, David Lang.
My classes here cap at 35 students for a freshman survey and 15 for an upper division course. I did teach a couple of 100+ sections of Western Civ while in grad school...didn't care for it, as I never got to know but a few students by name.
I enjoyed university for the social pleasures and learned enough. I really enjoyed the knowledge from the weekly seminars in conjunction with the Navy War College distance learning back in the early 90s. 1 4 hour seminar in person a week was just about right for a working man. My son is now a sophomore in EE and doesn't go to class if there is any other option because he doesn't think they offer any value at all. He is paying his own way through and I'm glad to have him around (he has his own place) but it doesn't seem that the in corpus college part is working anymore. The labs are good and of course will be an increasing part of the learning but I'd despair if I was a college professor. We do enjoy listening to wonderful college lectures so bring it on Eric Cline and all the rest!
In contrast there is a trend in primary and secondary education to ban cellphones. I think this will percolate up eventually to the higher levels of education.
There is a lot of talk of making tests oral or at least in class to avoid AI cheating.
I think we will actually end up with two education streams one cheap online and AI customized to go at a person’s own pace, and one very traditional probably with Oxbridge style universities with oral examinations. Presumably these will be networking environments for future business and work partners and marriage partners.
I think degrees will become an exotic thing for intellectuals and rich people, and most professions will test for professional competency, kind of like passing the bar.
I know we already have these tests, but passing them will be all a person needs to qualify for the field however they learn it no degree needed. The tests will be adapted to be as AI cheating proof as possible.
As a thought experiment, factor in the demographics...the college aged "cohorts" are shrinking. Some smaller colleges just cannot make it anymore financially and close. Some schools merge or try something else (my state system is closing some campuses, centralizing administration). The working student, or older students can be cash cows (but not very big ones) due to employer-based tuition reimbursements. Finally, foreign students are biog cash cows, no financial aid. That has been slowed down lately. Also, quite a few US universities have campuses in other countries (Panama for one). This allows a student who wants a US degree, but can't for some reason get a visa or can't afford it, to pursue that goal. Stream of consciousness post, I know, but there are big, hard to avoid changes coming to higher education.
There was a movie in the 80s, "Real Genius", set at "Pacific Tech University", where as the year goes on, more students attend lectures via tape recorder.
Near the end, the lecturer also uses a tape recorder to play back his speech, so there is a scene where everyone in the classroom (except the main character) is a tape recorder.
What do you get out of a lecture by a lecturer who doesn't take questions, and doesn't interact with the audience? Nothing that you couldn't read at your leisure.
Excellent point.
One of the hugely important aspects of college/higher education is interacting with other bright and focused people. A remote, online experience where the student interacts only with the instructor sacrifices this.
I first attended college classes at a community college. It was in person, and the interactions were a major part of the learning.
The Young Communists tried to recruit on campus. I did stop on my way to point out that these workers and children of workers were not likely to be open to their pitch. The guy didn't get it.
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