Tuesday, December 31, 2024

Visas, immigrants, and adversarial politics in the USA

 

The fuss over H1B and other worker visas is ongoing, and doesn't look like being resolved anytime soon.  That's a pity for our country, because there are good arguments to be made on both sides of the issue.  Certainly, we have too many immigrants at present (and I say that as an immigrant myself!);  but at the same time, our education system is churning out a truly vast proportion of our young people who can't read, can't write, and can't handle basic numeracy.  Even worse, when the best of our youngsters get to university or college, they're wasting time (in some cases, years) on "remedial education" to fix those earlier problems, then studying a lot of courses that have nothing whatsoever to do with the specialization they've chosen.  As noted in our earlier article today:


The rot at the heart of universities in the West goes beyond expecting very little of students. It also shows up in the politicised nature of what they are asked to do. Engineering students ... complained after they were set the task of creating ‘a product for LGBTQ+ people focussed on providing education or safe spaces’. Students, not unreasonably, questioned what relevance this task had to engineering, and why it was worth 70 per cent of their module grade. Previous cohorts of engineering students apparently got to build a Mars rover.


The "woke" establishment is basically treating education as a tool to indoctrinate students in a particular political and philosophical perspective, a world view that's based almost entirely on dubious, flimsy theories that collapse in the face of the reality in which we live.

This is directly affecting the debate over work visas to the USA.  For decades I've watched the quality of graduates from US universities, both from the perspective of a businessman who had to select applicants for jobs in the information technology industry, and as a pastor looking at how such applicants were coping with life, the universe and everything.  In so many words, you could say (and I do) that US universities are failing to produce graduates who understand reality.  Everything is theoretical to them;  and if the issue of reality raises its ugly head, they prefer to try to ignore or change that reality rather than adjust their views.  It's astonishing to see, but I daresay many of my readers have encountered it, and understand what I'm talking about.

Foreign graduates seldom exhibit the same cocooned approach to reality.  Many of them have had to struggle and sacrifice to graduate, after competing against vast numbers of applicants to get into university in the first place.  They want to come to America because it offers an environment in which success brings worldly reward and upward mobility - something often conspicuous by its absence in their home countries.  If you're a good engineer in, say, Mumbai in India, or Jakarta in Indonesia, you'll earn more than those around you, to be sure;  but that income will still be circumscribed by the fact that there are a dozen graduates eager to take your place.  They have nowhere else to go, because the doors of emigration to the West are all too often closed and locked against them.  Therefore, they'll compete with you and each other, thus driving down income and upward mobility in society.  Under those circumstances, why wouldn't they strive with might and main to get a work visa to come to a society that offers them so much more?

Compare and contrast the average US tertiary education graduate, as described above, with the average Third World tertiary graduate.  Who's hungrier for success?  Who's going to work harder to achieve it?  Who's going to accept that in order to succeed, they have to start with low expectations and look to rise by proving their ability, their worth, to the satisfaction of those who pay them?  The answer to those questions reveals the impetus from corporations to keep the H1B and work visa stream flowing.  If it wasn't profitable to employers, they wouldn't support it.  They certainly don't want the administrative and financial overhead of bringing such employees over here:  it's costly, inconvenient and carries with it a bureaucratic tangle that makes compliance difficult.  Nevertheless, despite those obstacles, it's still cheaper for them than hiring local graduates who want a lot more money to produce a lot less work, and who are less driven to succeed.  That's the blunt reality of the situation.

I agree with many critics that foreign graduates are often of lower intelligence (as measured by IQ) than local graduates.  That's not nearly as important as many people think.  A worker with an IQ of 120 may be bored silly by more repetitive tasks, or try to "coast" by using his intelligence instead of working harder.  A foreign worker with the same qualification and an IQ of, say, 100, may produce more and better work than his local, "more intelligent" rival simply because he's used to working harder, with greater application, than those around him.  He's had to do so in order to get where he is.  Nobody checked his IQ score, and did more for him on the basis that "he's smart".  Instead, they checked whether he was working harder, and producing more and better results, than his competitors in the university and/or workplace.  That's how he got where he is:  and he isn't going to sit back and relax because he's now in a job, a company, an environment, that doesn't drive him as hard - not if he wants to stay there.

There are all sorts of arguments that such foreign "imports" produce a lower quality of work, or abuse the system by "gaming" it, or try to hire more like themselves in order to drive Americans out of the workplace.  All those complaints are probably true, as far as I can judge from my limited knowledge of the field.  Yet, despite all that, corporations continue to hire them.  Why would they do that if it wasn't to their advantage to do so?

That's the question none of the opponents of workplace immigration will answer.  If you locally supply the demand, that will automatically shut down most of the inflow of foreign skilled workers . . . but if you don't shut down the demand, that won't happen.  Corporations won't shut down the demand, because it's to their advantage to continue with the present system.  You won't be able to reform the system unless you first reform the conditions that gave rise to its growth - and that means tackling the US education system, just as much as business and immigration law.  Do you hear H1B opponents saying anything about that?  No, you don't.

Visa reform is only one element - and probably not the most important element - in a structural reform that will impact many areas of US society.  Unless and until we recognize that, and begin to address it, the abuse of work visas at the expense of US employees will continue.

That's the bottom line.

Peter


23 comments:

Xoph said...

I remember reading about a company that could not find enough programmers. They found suitable apprentices and then had their qualified programmers teach the apprentices. The technical education is easy. The work ethic and introduction to reality is what is tough. But if businesses were to forego University degrees, hire out of high school and grow their own employees then it would end the silliness of our higher education.

Having retired from corporate and seen the C-suite believe that training dollars are wasted dollars, I don't see the above happening on a grand scale. Still, we would find solutions if the visa option was ended entirely. We need to quit walking down the road we are on, it is paved with greed.

JG said...

Me and my wife went to college in the mid 70s. We saw the education system problems with our sons in the 90s and early 2000s. Our sons graduated HS different years after we tutored them to get them properly taught though school. The choice after HS was college or Trade School and each picked a TS. They went to different Trade Schools, which cost us less then half a year of college. They make well over 6 figures, have houses, cars, and good bank accounts. My oldest son has a family.

Larry said...

Yep.And it will take a few years for the first imoroved graduates begin to make their presence felt in the workplace. Even elementary schools need to be reformed -- both teachers and curriculum. Fire most of the bureaucratic cruft that has grown up, trim administrative staff at all levels, and let go the bottom 25% of teachers. Use the payroll savings to bump up the pay of the remaining teachers, especially the 25%. Yes, class sizes will rise, but if discipline is brought back in and, horrors, classes in each grade are split into 3-4 levels with the students sorted into them according to intelligence and ability, with periodic reviews to see if someone should be advanced into a faster class or dropped back to a slower one. Some parents will raise hell, but parents like that are part of the problem and need to be treated that way. Linguini-spined school boards aren't blameless, either. University education departments are chock-a-block with low-achievers and leftists busily turning out clones to teach kids. From top to bottom, we're in a real jam.

Anonymous said...

FWIW

FWIW

“H-1B DATA MEGA-THREAD ”

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1873174358535110953.html

Via https://instapundit.com/693299/#disqus_thread

nick flandrey said...

What corps get from the H1Bs is indentured servitude. They work them crazy hours, because they still measure hours worked and think of that as a valid metric. They THINK they are getting a bargain- lower hourly cost, and more hours. But the rarely acknowledged fact is that an overwhelming number of the visa employees are NOT what the corp thought they were getting.

They inflate their work experience, their education, and their ability, they blatantly lie about things, their agencies and enablers cover it up and excuse it, or blame "cultural differences" or "language issues."

Does the US really need hordes of hourly employees whose only metric of effectiveness is how long they sit in a seat? No. We need the best and brightest of the world to work independently, or within the framework of existing companies to EXPAND what is possible and develop the next wave of good things.

We don't need average or below average liars, who will work like slaves, but produce little.

Working hard at the wrong thing is pointless and a waste.

We have our own average and below average people. We don't need to import more, and we certainly don't need more manual laborers.

We need a change in culture and our educational system to address the entitlement mindset and the lack of work ethic that convinces kids they can leave school and become CEO the next year. We need to get control of the economy so that inflation doesn't eat everyone alive, resulting in people who "can't live on $100K a year".

We don't need a whole industry designed to bring in vast numbers of replacements when we can't employ our own.

If we don't fix this we will be a degenerate society, with the majority living on the work of others without working themselves, and whether we call them H1B visas, indentured servants , or slaves is just a matter of social norms.

nick

Dirty Dingus McGee said...

Our company found that if you take technical graduates of "lower tier" colleges you can get folks who actually learned the skills. The big name "Tech" colleges are the ones forcing the crap onto the students, and at a far higher tuition cost. The employees who were a "dream catch" were the ones with a trades or blue collar background who earned a degree at night school. Best of both worlds, real world experience plus GOOD education.

Old NFO said...

If they want to modify the H1B visas, make it so that the visa holder is FULLY qualified for the position before the visa is granted. Not coming in as a trainee.

lynn said...

My senior design class at TAMU had to redesign a bulk handling system for Alumina. The Alcoa guy came in at the end of the semester, looked at all of our designs, and stated that they had tried them all and all failed to work any better than the current crappy system.

BTW, if you ask a bunch of Aggie engineers to design “A Safe Place”, I can almost guarantee you that you will not like what you get. A one sided bus shelter comes to mind.

Fred said...

Replacing American workers with foreigners will eventually result in the replacement of America, with something else.

Unknown said...

I don't think we have too many LEGAL immigrants, but I do think the process is currently broken.

re: H1b visas, the problem is that they are being used in violation to the law that created them. They exist to bring in people for jobs that cannot be filled by people already here, but are being used to undercut local people.

I read that Trump set the minimum pay for H1B jovs to $120k, but Biden lowered it to $60k. I think it should probably be even higher (even after adjusting for inflation)

A Texan said...

Some years ago, a drafter buddy was working at mid west consulting company that had farmed out some design work from Indonesia and their job was to check the drawings. The long short is that my American drafter buddy had to spend more time correcting than the money saved from outsourcing the work. Such it is the same with H1's.

I have worked with some decent Indian engineers, but the reality is not all are equal. Most employers are hell bent on 'saving money' and while that is their right, this does not create a cohesive society that is worth investing your time and effort into.

There is active dissemination against Whites because they don't make good slaves that corporate America loves.

Anonymous said...

If we need to tackle education first, I think John Taylor Gatto had the best take on the problems in public education. Namely, from its inception and roots, it was designed to dumb down Americans since modern tech would need mostly just worker bees who don’t question orders. So if we really want to fix things, dump the entire public education system and go back to how Americans were educated prior to the 20th century.

LL said...

Happy 2025, BRM & Dorothy!

LSWCHP said...

I had a 40 year career as an engineer in military radar design and development, and surface to air missile fire control. It was a high performance environment.

The Indian engineers I ran across during my career were universally poor quality. I really cannot recall ever meeting a good one.

Outsourcing anything to India will always result in a poor quality product delivered (if it ever is) at much greater cost than expected.

Philip Sells said...

This post is a good example of the good arguments for and against that can exist, as mentioned at the top.

M said...

As for why a corporation would use a person imported on an H-1B visa in place of a citizen, a large part of it is likely that they can't change jobs.
Filling a position is a large cost. You have to advertise and interview, then fit the person in when you do hire.
I've heard from person who has worked as an H-1B. It apparently *is* possible to switch companies, but the company (presumably the one you're switching to) has to be motivated to do work on your behalf.
It's ironic that this is the sort of person who the H-1B was created for: the sort you can't find in the US, and companies are willing to fight over. Yet they're so rare to find that most people don't know that you can switch.

Steve Sky said...

Immigration attorneys from Cohen & Grigsby explain how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1B workers.
Link

-------------------------------
As noted in posts above, the purpose of H1Bs is to replace American workers with indentured servitude workers and push the wages of American workers down. This is because the H1B salaries form a wage floor for the businesses to pay. (If you believe the H1Bs are paid "competitive salaries", I have a bridge to sell you, small bills only.)

The businesses are right. There is a shortage of qualified American workers willing to work for indentured servitude wages. I've watched it happen for two businesses I have worked for. H1Bs are brought in with to fill open positions (Americans eliminated under one excuse or another - see the video), and the American workers lose.

[As a side issue, I'll note that high school grads considering college for a career see this, hear it, and don't chose tech. Personally, I've advised any people asking about tech to avoid tech and go into blue collar work because of H1Bs]

Note "the shortage of qualified American workers" is always the hysterical news story promoted by businesses when they are trying to raise (or eliminate) the H1B caps, but it doesn't reflect reality.

pjk said...

Peter - you state in your post that nobody appears to be answering the question: Why would they do that if it wasn't to their advantage to do so?

I have found many sources that have answered that question - and several have answered in response to your post above. Perhaps I don't understand what answer you are looking for, but the H-1B Visa has long been pointed out as being a way for a company to reduce costs - recall that Disney laid off 250 of their programmers a few years ago and required them to train their replacements in order to receive severance pay. These were workers that came in under the H-1B Visa program.

In my view, the issue that has been revealed is that Elon and Vivek have shown that they are not the very best at "reading the room" and did not realize the degree of angst in this country over ANY foreign worker, whether from across the border or via some Visa program, taking a job that could be done by an American. The public didn't seem to care if the foreign worker was coming to take an American's job in lawn care or in high tech - the American worker seems to want the immigration system to be run for the benefit of our Country as a whole.

I want immigrants who want to be Americans - I married one after all. Further, I don't object to immigrants taking tech jobs if they have come to this country because they want to be an American and take part in our great experiment (my sister-in-law is also an immigrant who came here because she wanted to take part in this great country and she wound up being a literal rocket scientist).

I think that what we see is that, by and large, we are no longer willing to have illegal immigrants take jobs from Americans OR economic temporary immigrants who come here due to a Visa carve-out designed to allow companies to use cheaper (overall) labor that they have a much higher level of control over than domestic workers.

Steve Sky said...

Via BCE, here is a very good discussion on the problems of H1Bs.

Skyler the Weird said...

"US universities are failing to produce graduates who understand reality. Everything is theoretical to them; ". That's because the Universities have adopted Marxism. Everything Marxist is dialectic and theoretical and ignores reality. Hard science and engineering must take a back seat to Lysenkoism and Party Dogma.

Skyler the Weird said...

Since my workplace was bought out during the Financial Meltdown of 2008 I notice the new owners let all the Trainers go. They have replaced being trained in a classroom environment with the use of an online knowledge base which isn't user friendly. They tried saving money by outsourcing to India and then saving more money by outsourcing from India to the Philippines, but that's still too expensive so they are now experimenting with AI.

Skyler the Weird said...

There was one company that hired Indian programmers at lower wages and paid for them to live in an apartment across the street from the campus. The first thing the Contractors did was put resumes on Monster.com to get higher paying full time jobs. The Company learned to add a non compete clause to the contract.

Mind your own business said...

I doubt that any job which only requires a Bachelor's degree in STEM requires bringing in ANY foreign educated person. Those aren't the kind of jobs where an employer can't find a US graduate. They just aren't.
I was a STEM undergrad from MIT, and went through STEM graduate programs at UC Berkeley, Penn State, and MIT. It isn't until you get into the PhD level of a program will you find that high level of expertise becomes rare enough to warrant using an H1B type program. Where you find that expertise becomes so specialized that an employer might have difficulty finding a US citizen with the desired background. (And an employer that gives that person a job with boring "routine" is wasting their time and money.) Besides, most US graduate-level STEM programs are already roughly 50% foreign students.