Given the current parlous state of US shipyards and shipbuilding, is it time to seriously consider building our warships overseas? The Telegraph thinks so.
When [the US Navy has] imported a design, such as the much loved Knox class and now the Constellation class (based on the French and Italian Fregate Europeenne Multi-Mission – FREMM – design), they have always built it in the US.
As an aside, the Constellation class is a live case study in what happens if you select a foreign design and then meddle with it. It is now estimated that 85 per cent of the Constellation design is different to the FREMM, undoing any savings in cost and time and throwing away most of the guarantees of capability and reliability. President-elect Trump commented on it this week, saying, “people playing around and tinkering and changing the design… they’re not smart and they take something and they make it worse for a lot more money”. Given how the Franken-FREMM is taking shape, this is actually quite polite.
Much of Trump’s interview was in response to the Congressional Budget Office’s “analysis of the Navy’s 2025 shipbuilding plan” which outlined the following key points:
First, the 2025 plan increases shipbuilding costs by 46 per cent annually in real terms compared to recent averages. The CBO estimates $40 billion yearly over 30 years, 17 per cent above Navy projections, with the total budget rising from $255 billion to $340 billion by 2054.
Second, the fleet would decrease to 283 ships by 2027 before growing to 390 by 2054 from the current 295. The Navy will buy 364 new ships, focusing on current generation and smaller vessels. Firepower will dip initially but increase as the fleet expands.
Third, a significant increase in the size of the industrial base, especially for nuclear submarines, is required.
So: can’t afford the plan, will reduce in size and lethality in the short term, major industrial expansion is required to reverse this decline. This makes for difficult reading for two reasons. First, it is clear the US cannot scale up its shipyards as it needs to on any reasonable time scale: it cannot even fully staff its existing yards, let alone open new ones. Second, you could change dollars and pounds and reduce the numbers (a lot) and a report on the Royal Navy would say almost the same.
Trump carries on in the same interview saying, “We’re going to be announcing some things that are going to be very good having to do with the Navy. We need ships. We have to get ships… We may have to go to others, bid them out, and it’s okay to do that. We’ll bid them out until we get ourselves ready”.
Looking for signs as to what he meant by ‘others’ and ‘bid them out’, many have looked to South Korea based on something he said last November shortly after being elected. “The US shipbuilding industry needs South Korea’s help and cooperation. We are aware of Korea’s construction capabilities and should cooperate with Korea in repair and maintenance. I want to talk more specifically in this area.”
As if to show the Trump effect, just the hint was enough to see Korean ship builders Hanwha Ocean and HJ Shipbuilding & Construction stock prices showing strong gains on the day (10 and 15 percent) while the shares of Hyundai’s shipbuilding subsidiaries and Samsung Heavy Industries increased a little (three percent).
It’s also not clear if he was referring to warships or support vessels but either way, South Korea has pedigree. He could certainly use them to build ships for the Military Sealift Command ... Fleet auxiliaries aren’t as complicated to build as warships, though more so than most kinds of commercial shipping. But Korean yards have also produced some very complex warships, including ones carrying the powerful US-made Aegis combat system – the gold standard of warship technology.
. . .
Consider this: Hyundai Heavy Industries’ shipbuilding division in South Korea is the biggest shipbuilder in the world. It produces most classes of warship, including submarines, as well as huge tonnages of commercial vessels. It has around 14,000 employees. This is actually fewer people than work in the shipbuilding divisions of BAE Systems plc, which are only capable of producing sharply limited numbers of warships and auxiliaries, very slowly and expensively.
There's more at the link (article may be paywalled).
I know "America First!" purists will scream blue murder at the thought of offshoring the Navy's new ships, but our own shipyards are simply too backlogged on current maintenance and construction to even consider working faster or harder. In many cases, they're hampered by a severe shortage of skilled labor, which can virtually name its own price to work in other industries as well.
We could start by contracting for support ships - unarmed vessels. These are basically merchant ships built to military specifications, perhaps with tougher hulls and plating to withstand prolonged sea time, plus specialized equipment for refueling and replenishment at sea. There's no reason why actual warships could not be built as well. South Korea already produces its own designs, armed with American weapons and electronics and technology. To add a production line for Constellation-class frigates or Flight III Arleigh Burke-class destroyers wouldn't appear to offer any significant problem on the face of it. It's certainly no more of a security risk than already exists, because almost all our current weapons systems have already been sold to South Korea and installed by its builders in their own warships. If anyone planned to steal information about them, they've already had the opportunity.
I think this idea has tremendous possibilities. Why not try it and see?
Peter
9 comments:
Or maybe instead of trying to be an Empire the "Sun never sets upon" like the British Empire of old.
We could have a Department of DEFENSE and build to protect OUR Boarders and shorelines.
Could reduce the numbers and expense of a worldwide fleet. After all England went from a world class navy to two badly overworked frigates and two "Flag ship" aircraft carriers that have AMERICAN Marine Air Wings assigned as their firepower.
OH, and they are again in the shop for crippling issues.
And we LAUGH at Russian navy ships...
At one time we needed a navy to protect OUR SHIPPING (See the "Shores of Tripoli" for example) but America has almost ZERO Global American Flagged Shipping as shown by the MASSIVE amount of other countries shipping Hired to support all military operations across the globe.
Maybe like England we will require a crippling loss of economic collapse to get there?
England had BIG BROTHER America to support and protect them. you know that "Special Relationship".. so who's going to be OUR Big Brother when the Petro Dollar becomes Weimar Paper Marks.
Keep running that Credit Card guys, keep running those rubber checks. Soon enough nobody will do business with you as your "Full Faith and Confidence of the USA" is going to be deemed worthless.
Got a deep food larder and trusted friends to ride out the chaos?
how much of the inability to build ships in the US is due to unions opposing automation?
Who is going to man all these ships? Any actual able talent is smart enough to know the military and especially the Navy isn't a good decision at this time until the US government and culture is unf---ed.
We need new ships...both support ships and warships...and we need them soon, not in 25 years.
We absolutely should contract the construction of those ships out to our economic allies; both support ships and warships. We should at the same time, absolutely begin reconstructing and reestablishing our own shipbuilding capacity but we don't have the time to wait for that to happen, and then wait for that new shipbuilding capacity to get the first ship built. Most of our fleet is already at or near the end of its service life...we can't keep patching antique ships back together for another 25 or 30 years and expect them to stay mission capable.
"Or maybe instead of trying to be an Empire the "Sun never sets upon" like the British Empire of old.
We could have a Department of DEFENSE and build to protect OUR Boarders and shorelines."
I don't necessarily disagree but you have to consider that our shorelines cover over 95,000 linear miles. Expand that out to the couple of hundred miles distance we'd need to cover to effectively defend ourselves and that's a big chunk of ocean to protect with the current fleet of less than 300 ships. And the presumption that we can effectively protect ourselves without projecting power elsewhere in the world is incredibly naive.
I absolutely agree that we shouldn't be the guardians of the world and it isn't our job to protect every other nation, but the US has interests all over the world that make the ability to project power through a strong Navy imperative.
"And we LAUGH at Russian navy ships..."
Russia is not our primary threat these days so that's irrelevant.
"At one time we needed a navy to protect OUR SHIPPING (See the "Shores of Tripoli" for example) but America has almost ZERO Global American Flagged Shipping as shown by the MASSIVE amount of other countries shipping Hired to support all military operations across the globe."
What difference does it make who's flag the ship is flying if it's carrying goods that are vital to the US economy? It's not the ship that's important (to anyone other than the company that owns it), it's efficient, timely delivery of the cargo that needs to be assured.
"England had BIG BROTHER America to support and protect them. you know that "Special Relationship".. so who's going to be OUR Big Brother when the Petro Dollar becomes Weimar Paper Marks."
That's an excellent point, but the answer to our financial woes isn't for the US Government to abdicate it's fundamental responsibilities (and national defense is very much a fundamental responsibility of government), the answer is to stop financing all the crap that is has no business spending money on.
For example, an aircraft carrier costs somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 Billion dollars to build. The US Department of Education...which has no Constitutional basis for existing and provides an education to exactly zero students...has an annual budget of approximately 100 Billion Dollars per year.
That math isn't hard.
"Who is going to man all these ships? Any actual able talent is smart enough to know the military and especially the Navy isn't a good decision at this time until the US government and culture is unf---ed."
Agreed, but the right people to do that unf---ing are about to take charge. Ships aren't built overnight. By the time those new ships hit the high seas, hopefully the Navy will be back to the Honor, Courage and Committment of the fleet I served and patriotic Americans will once again be proud to enlist.
At least that's my prayer.
Or just a thought, we could I don't know. Expand our naval dockyards, expand the workforce at said dockyards, and start using our own resources to make the materials used to build and repair the ships.
Thereby creating jobs in the mining industry, jobs in the manufacturing industry, jobs in the dockyards, and oh yea keep our bloody navy in house.
(As a side note, anyone trying to convince you to have someone else build your weapons, ammo, or ships for you is not your friend. Internal lines of supply can be destroyed, but don't tend to betray you at the worst moments.)
Also why the frick are we still patrolling the seas of the world, and having bases in something like 80%+ of all countries. Pull them all back, shut down the bases, and put the money needed to run those bases into repairs for our military (all the branches need repairs at this point.) Ironically shutting down those bases would also lower the amount of manpower needed which would also relieve the recruitment woes of the ground forces.
To much stuff has been pushed to foreign nations, pull it back and rebuild our industry. That will provide jobs which will help our economy instead of someone else's. In addition to making sure we get better quality ships, gear, etc.
- W
Well said.
"Why are we still patrolling the seas of the world?"
Because most of the world's trade moves by sea at one point or another and a lot of our prosperity (and, by extension, our national security, since building weapons and recruiting troops requires a little thing called money) depends on said trade running smoothly, so we try and make sure that it does. Facilitating this, by the way, is also why we have naval bases abroad.
This is something that we've known and understood since the Barbary Wars, and I really do not understand why it's so difficult for people to grasp this concept.
Personally speaking, I prefer to fight would-be invaders as far away from my home and hearth as possible, but to each their own, I suppose.
No, we do not have vital interests "all over the world." Those are the interests of the G(lobal) A(merican) E(mpire) which spreads sexual degeneracy and undermines nations wherever it goes. The GAE may 'need' a globe-spanning Navy; heritage America does not.
And if we actually produced anything domestically, we would have no need of the cheap chinesium that we keep the shipping lanes open for. And to produce anything, we need an educated and capable workforce of White men, not airheaded women taking selfies, lesbian fire chiefs, and black mayors. Not to mention Lloyd Austin and his White-hating appointees.
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