This question is for all you mechanics and automotive experts out there.
I drive a 2014 Nissan Pathfinder. Over the past six months the vehicle has seemed more and more “twitchy” in its handling when at speed and on rougher surfaces. This past weekend, my wife and I drove from Iowa Park to San Angelo and back, and the problem appears to have become much worse – so much so that it literally scared us. At times we worried we might lose control of the vehicle.
The problem occurs in specific conditions:
- When at higher speeds (60-80 mph);
- On rougher road surfaces (not on very smooth surfaces);
- When the road curves, or when the driver changes direction;
- When the vehicle is under acceleration or the cruise control is applying power to maintain speed (not when the vehicle is coasting without the accelerator being used).
All of the above appear to be necessary to create the specific problem. When they are present, the vehicle can lurch or “twitch” for a second or so when changing direction. It’s very abrupt, almost as if the vehicle is about to go out of control, but it doesn’t last long enough to make that actually happen. Sometimes it’s merely a mild twitch, but other times it can be hard and strong enough to really scare us (both driver and passenger).
I've wracked my brains to figure out what might be causing such a problem. It doesn't resemble a CV joint issue (although that may be part of it), and other front suspension and steering components don't display any obvious problems. I've sent the car in to the dealership for their mechanics to look at, but so far they haven't reported that they've found anything.
Can anybody suggest what might be causing it? If so, please advise in Comments. Thanks!
Peter
44 comments:
When was the wheel alignment last checked?
Incorrect toe in the front or rear can lead to unpredictable handling.
Maybe something to do with a power steering issue? Is there enough fluid in the reservoir?
Could also be something to do with the power steering pump. It’s full of washers…
I would start looking at the shock absorbers and the steering linkages / tie rod ends, then at the ball joints.
I hope that you have a good mechanic nearby. Be safe.
John in Indy
Could be a tread separation issue.. try rotating the tires front to back.
Based on the symptoms, I would suspect a problem with steering assist, speed sensing steering or some other electronic "feature" that is computer controlled. See: https://www.pathfindertalk.com/threads/steering-assist-issues.41269/
It could be excessive play in the steering system. This could be caused by a loose rack & pinion, excessive slop in the rack & pinion or a loose/failing steering shaft universal joint.
Broken motor mounts cause strange behavior, often associated with acceleration. Just a thought.
A broken engine mount can yield that sort of response. One can literally steer the vehicle with acceleration/deceleration.
that sounds like it could be some play in the steering system, from the power steering box, or some of the linkages.
have someone wag the wheel back and forth with the vehicle stopped and off and someone else look and listen under the vehicle for any inconsistent movement.
Find a good front end shop (a mom-n-pop shop is always my favorite) and have then take a look, it's what they do.
Having said that my first guess was a tire going bad, I'd look (with a bright flash light) at the seam between the sidewall & tread for any cracks or separation. As mentioned swapping the tires (front to back) and see if the problem goes away is a step in the DIY troubleshooting... but that is tough to do with a bad back and that brings it back to a good front end shop!
Good luck Peter.
Tire pressure too high.
In my experience, most of the mechanical issues that could cause behavior like that would be more consistent and wouldn't occur at particular speeds. If your ball joints, tie rods, etc were worn out, you'd have squirrelly handling all the time and you'd probably hear and feel some bumping and thumping when going over bumps.
Not to say you should check them, you should, but if your mechanic is worth anything at all, they should have spotted that immediately when you had them check it out.
Rotating the tires front to back can't hurt as someone above suggested, and tire problems can cause issues at particular speeds, I'd expect it to be more consistent, not an "all the sudden" kind of thing and again is usually accompanied by vibrations, shaking etc. Also worth a shot, but I don't expect that's the issue.
Steering box or power steering pump make logical sense, but I've never heard of a bad steering box or pump causing symptoms like that.
I'd second the "electronic gremlins" theory. Do you have any sort of steering assist? Or maybe your steering is completely computer controlled? Something that intermittent and unpredictable sounds like some sort of computer or electronic control issue to me.
"To err is human, to really screw things up takes a computer." -unknown
jack up the front end. and shake both wheels if you can. if there is ANY play at all, start checking
everything that is bolted together. if not that, check out the steering rack. could be anything from a going bad wheel bearing to a rack that needs to be replaced. and check out the tires
as well, are they balanced, or did a wheel weight fall off ? had a front tires that lost a wheel weight, it was unreal how much it effected the steering at speed.
Look at the tread pattern on the front tires. If it's even across both tires, you're probably ok on alignment and suspension components and should focus either on steering pump/electric controls and/or some one-off item like motor mount (can confirm motor mount breakage can cause weird issues). If the tread pattern isn't even (i.e. too much wear on inside of tires, outside, more on one tire than another, and or wavering wear) then look at suspension and alignment. Just my 2 cents on quick diagnosis.
If this vehicle has ABS / faulty sensor. Happened on Toyota Camry!
I had similar behaviour on my 2008 VW bus the other day. In the end my mechanic replaced the lower control arm bushes, the press bushes and the ball joints and it was back to normal.
It is often more effective to FEEL for play (with vehicle on ground, one person wiggles the wheel hard from side to side while another puts his hand on one joint at a time to feel for knocking or clicking from play).
One bad shock absorber will cause twitches and spins when you hit a bump or turn the front wheels even slightly. Get em checked asap.
Check the control arm bushings. They can progress in wear to a 'death wobble' at certain speeds. 65 in my pathfinder. Good luck.
I had a similar problem, it was dry, binding, king pins. You don't have king pins, so John in in Indy may be right.
Jack up one side. Grip the tire at 3 and 9 oclock and move back and forth slowly while looking at the tierod ends(both inner and outer.) Nect grab tire at 12 and 6. Do the same thing any movement and ulyou have bad wheel bearings. Do both sides. You need to leave one side on the ground while checking the other side. Check the u-joints for play in the steering shaft. Check ball joints, both upper and lower for movement. Check drag link on steering box. Check axle joints. You Tube is your friend.
My bet's with tie rod ends. Jack up one of the front tires clear of the ground. then try grabbing the tire at the 9 and 3 o'clock positions and pull on one side and then the other. There should be no play, and no movement of the wheel at all, unless the wheel on the other side moves exactly as much as the one you're testing. If there's play, you've got a bad tie rod end. that'll cause steering flop, especially if the toe-in on your front wheels is zero. Steering and handling issues tend to be exacerbated by front-wheel-drive, as the steering wheels are also under power.
I'd start with the basics. Put a floor jack under that thing, get it in the air, grab the bottom and top of the tire and see how much play there is. It could simply be wheel bearings. Vehicles with independent front suspension chew through them.
This is the sort of thing I would have asked my husband. Since I can't, and you have a lot of suggestions, the only thing I would add is that whenever my husband swapped tires front to back, he also swapped them side to side in an "X" fashion.
If your problem with speed is worn tire related, as in uneven wear, that should solve it. Probably only temporarily, depending on what caused the uneven wear.
Good luck, be safe and God bless.
The first thing to understand, is there loose 'play' in any of the front wheel components: ball joints, tie rods, steering knuckles, steering box, etc. Jack up the front on stands and get a pry bar under each tire and yank up on it to check each wheel separately, get underneath and wiggle everything.
Sometimes a poor tire choice to your vehicle can cause it to 'rail' on crowned roads, too - in addition to the over/underinflation issues. Of course, it could also be a combination of factors. Here, I use a front-end and frame alignment shop, they're real pros. If you have any friends at the dealerships, find out where they send their business. You want a pro shop, not one that fronts for the average consumer. Good luck and let us know !
The advice to see a good front end shop is correct. From your description, I'd be looking closely at the control arm bushings and the steering rack bushings. These can cause majors front end shifts, and are often overlooked.
I forgot. Check the sway bars and stabilizers also. We had a 2019 GMC 2500 service truck that would do the death wobble when you hit a bump at highway speed. Wouldnt stop shaking till you almost came to a stop. It was scary. We pretty much rebuilt the frontend. It was waranty work as the truck was only 2 years old and less than 50k in miles.
Thanks for all the advice, friends. I've taken the vehicle in to a front end shop, and they'll tell me what they find. I'm afraid it's likely to be expensive, but then, almost anything to do with a vehicle is expensive these days!
Similar symptoms with our 2011 Armada. Recently went to the shop for a brake job. They did a courtesy inspection and found it needs tie rod ends, and front wheel bearings. Squeals when turning left. Slight jerking motion when driving down the road. More noticeable at highway speeds.
What The Fox Said.
You shouldn't do the X-pattern rotation with radial tires; front to back and back to front only. Doing the X-pattern can cause friction in the fiber plies in the tire, which tend to develop a "lay," and can cause a blowout. Also, be aware that many tires these days are set up for a specific rotation direction. There'll be an arrow indicating the direction on the sidewall. The X-pattern rotation will violate that rotation on all four tires.
Does this vehicle have hybrid steering? We had a problem like that with the escape pod (2008 ford escape) several years ago.
It sounds like the sway bar links are bad. I’ve been working on cars for +/- 53 years and some vehicles are more sensitive to this than others. Your symptoms are consistent with what I have found on more than one SUV. You may find the links are Broken / missing but I’ll bet the rubber bushings are worn out and or gone all together and that means the stabilizing effect is gone. Hope this helps
Don't know about that. I routinely have all the 1/2 tons with 40PSI in all tires, cause you never know what you'll be hauling back to the ranch.
Or did you mean like excessively high pressure?
https://search.brave.com/search?q=nissan+pathfinder+death+sway&source=android&summary=1&summary_og=552ff0a907e5f19e6ad206
The above search MAY be of use.
Hello! Real simple diagnostic: Park the vehicle. With the engine running, put the tires in the straight position. Open the winder and turn the wheel back and forth; Observe if there is any play, and how much, from turning the steering wheel until the tires start to move. Go back and forth. If there is a lot of play, it will be obvious.
Is it plugged in? Have you tried turning it off and back on?
Not as far as I know. However, as I mentioned: The dealer already diagnosed the problem.
Yes. Our estimate is $2100, for tie rod ends and wheel bearings. It may be the case that, to replace the wheel bearings, you have to replace the rotor as the bearing may be pressed into the rotor.
An amazingly large number of comments and every single one of these things should have been checked by a competent mechanic. Not to knock any of the commenters or comments, but I think you did the right thing by going to a different mechanic as presumably if you were able to check things yourself, you would have started there. Another question you should ask mechanics is "were they able to replicate the problem", in other words, did they go out and find a rough road and drive 60+ miles per hour, etc.
As a Journeyman for 35 years, I agree with the comments regarding the front end and front tire examination. As I am unable to recall the rear suspension on the Nissan, I will stick my neck out and also check (if equipped) the rear leaf springs for broken or loose u-bolts, broken leaf spring center-pin, or broken rear suspension mounting bolts.
I had a 1975 Ford F250 do the same thing. Took me about six month to find the problem. The rear axle U-bolts were loose. This allowed the axle to shift left to right. Made driving in LA traffic a bit spicy
DS
if it wasn't any of the already made suggestions I suggest turning off the electronic steering control
Did this ever get resolved?
I had something very similar happen, and as some have chimed in with, it turned out to be a bad "wheel speed sensor"
An online forum for the make/model of my car showed this happening to others, I could read up on the symptoms of others and how they were able to determine it, and someone was helpful enough to post their experience with changing it along with pics.
Never having done it before, it was a half-hour job, mainly getting around the tools, jacking up the car and removing the wheel. Undid an electrical connection, undid some clips holding the part and wires in place, swap in the new one.
Can't remember the cost, but cheap enough that I was willing to throw money at it even if it wasn't the issue - age of the car indicated it would probably be needing it at some point soon, so I could keep it and leave it alone if the part wasn't bad, or replace it if it was.
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