... take heed of this development in Washington state.
The Washington State Criminal Justice Training Commission has prohibited recruits from training with a popular semiautomatic handgun and has banned the pistol from the commission’s campuses after reports the gun could fire without someone pulling the trigger.
In an order issued Feb. 24, commission Executive Director Monica Alexander made a permanent prohibition of the Sig Sauer P320, one of the most popular handguns on the market, a version of which is used by the U.S. military.
Alexander had temporarily banned anyone from carrying and training with the firearm after an Oct. 9 incident, in which a recruit in a Basic Law Enforcement Academy class in Spokane reported his Sig Sauer “self-discharged” as he drew it to fire on targets at the police range. The round struck the ground behind the recruit and fragmented, striking and injuring an instructor and another recruit.
The recruit insisted his trigger finger was “indexed” — pointed alongside the frame of the handgun, outside of the trigger guard — when he drew the weapon. A firearms instructor confirmed the incident, stating he was watching the recruit’s hand and that the “weapon immediately fired while he was drawing the weapon” while his finger was not on the trigger.
. . .
The work group uncovered a number of lawsuits and video of incidents involving the Sig Sauer P320 firing while in a holster, including 2022 body-camera video of an officer in Milwaukee who was wounded when his partner’s firearm discharged in its holster.
Another body-camera video shows a 2023 incident in Montville, N.J., where an officer’s holstered sidearm goes off in the lobby of the police station.
There also have been a number of lawsuits filed against Sig Sauer over unintended discharges of the P320, including one settled in Tacoma in 2023 after a man suffered a serious leg wound when his gun discharged while he was holstering it. The details of the settlement were not immediately available.
There's more at the link.
There's no word on whether the prohibition also applies to the Sig-Sauer M17 and M18, military versions of the SiG P320. However, I'd assume the risk is the same - they're mechanically identical internally, as far as I know - so I'd be careful with the military pistols too.
I've never fired a Sig P320, so I can't comment from personal experience. I know it's become very popular in certain circles, with a number of top competition shooters using it. This troubling development in Washington state may change that.
Peter
21 comments:
I have one but never really liked it so I haven't shot it vary often. Never had any issues with it, but I really should either sell it or trade it for something I like better.
Why are people still carrying them? 80 confirmed instances... sigh
There was a modification to the firearm a few years back. This mod addressed this problem. The military version had a safety switch added to it as well.
As anonymous said, Sig has had a voluntary recall in place for a long time to address this "issue"...which they've actually never been able to reproduce. More recently purchased guns should already have the improvement. They basically lightened some of the trigger components to give them less mass; they also added a disconnector but I honestly don't see how that could possibly have anything to do with it...but I'm not an engineer. The military model (as well as some variants of the civilian model) has an external safety so they shouldn't be affected either way unless you keep one in the pipe with the safety off.
From what I've seen, the issue stems from using holsters that don't fit properly, put pressure on the sides of the trigger, and as the gun is jiggled around, the trigger is basically pulled by the holster.
Sig has never been able to make the gun go bang without pulling the trigger. In fact the design should make that impossible (I say "should" because nothing's guaranteed and mechanical failures do happen).
I own one and I like it, and from what I can see, if you use a holster that fits properly and doesn't "pinch" inside the trigger guard area, you won't have a problem...but I can understand people not wanting to take a chance.
BTW: I suspect that at least some of the reported incidents are people who just pulled a stupid and don't want to admit it. There have also been instances of Glocks reportedly going off without the trigger being pulled. Some of them, I'm sure, are also attributed to "DinDuNuttin Syndrome" ("I swear, I didn't do a thing, the gun just went off!!!"). Of the legitimate ones, most of those seem to be due to an obstruction being in the trigger guard while the gun is holstered. Windbreaker drawstrings seem to be popular for that particular one.
BTW: I have a Glock 19 too. I like the P320 better. Ruger and Magpul have recently come out with a "best of both worlds" kind of thing. Magpul Frame with a G19 compatible slide and barrel, but a "modular" trigger group like the P320. That may be my BAG day gun for next year.
Confirming what Anonymous posted. Sig addressed this issue years ago. I sent my P320 in, returned promptly. My primary carry. Never a problem.
My 34 year old EDC, Glock 19 has been amazingly well behaved, especially considering how many "superior" handguns have have been chasing the dragon all these years. snarc...actually, there are better hand guns out these days, but their "betterness" is marginal. The Sig p320 isn't the only handgun to have "issues", they always get ironed out. What could improve my G19? A 1911 style thumb safety.
If I were going to carry a "new" gun, it would be a Browning Hi Power or quality clone, sans the mag safety and some mild tuning. I love my 1911, but it doesn't hold enough ammo and recoil recovery is never as quick as a 9mm.
Oh yeah! If I were going to carry a Sig, I would stick with the combat proven, match grade, Sig 226. That is a bet-yer-life on it, handgun.
I purchased a new one several years back and have carried (and used it) quite a bit during this time. I don't whore for SigSauer and I've never had any problem with it mis-firing (or as we say in the trade: "premature ejaculation").
Article says modded guns still have issue. Carry mine with empty chamber to be sure.
Have one and it shoots well. Did a mag dump the other day and the slide seemed to hang going back into battery. Less than a box of ammo so far. Have to try it again one of these days. Have one of the new Ruger clones. Like it better than a Glock. Seems to shoot well although thirty round so far. Weather gets better will shoot both and see what happens.
Someone should put a loaded Sig320 on a live video feed inside a locked room, and watch it for several years to see if it manages to go off spontaneously, which is what the opening paragraph in the excerpt implied.
I'll wait for the results of that stunning experiment, but clearly grammar is not a thing at the Seattle Times.
So first of all, bear well in mind that you're reading an account about firearms from an anti-gun source, written by someone whose grasp on the English language is tenuous at best, and treat it accordingly. ("Accordingly", in this case, means throwing the entire report and the rag it was printed in under the birdcage as the best use of it, isn't out of line.)
And when a police recruit with about 15 minutes of weapon handling experience, reports his weapon spontaneously went off while he was drawing it from a holster, I have a pretty good idea that the problem, as with many such incidents, is always going to come down to one of "a loose nut behind the trigger".
In fairness, something isn't working the way someone expects. The list of possible causes includes operator error, improper technique, faulty holster equipment, and finally, weapon design flaw. If the report as printed is even factually accurate, which is far from given.
"80 incidents" has to be weighed against "400,000 non-incidents", (or several million, do some research) if we're going to be mathematically and statistically honest. That's less than once a month for less than 7 years, for a weapon that's been on the market for over 11 years. That's before we even look at those incidents' distribution over time since 2014.
When your entire academy recruit class doesn't have a problem, despite multiple draws from multiple courses of fire in just one class, nor did the dozens of classes before it, but you do, it isn't the weapon that's automagically at fault, and the odds of where the anomaly is more likely to lie skew towards the recruit to a factor of about 2000:1. Just on statistics. But sheer odds don't disprove a mechanical defect either.
{cf.: Gus Grissom and the Infamous Exploding Hatch of Liberty Bell 7.}
Also FTR, Sig not being "able to reproduce" an incident proves nothing, neither pro nor con, other than their inability to reproduce the problem. You can't prove a negative, so they could try a million times and not reproduce it, and it still counts logically as signifying absolutely nothing of any statistical or mechanical significance.
Whole lotta fallacious thinking going on here.
I recall the NYPD had the same problem when they switch from Revolvers to Glocks and few other early tested pistols. Hence the absolutely horrible "NY" triggers for Glock pistols used by the NYPD.
Many instances of "Glock Leg" and "Racing Stripes" from many negligent discharges do to poor early transition training (from revolver to pistol).
I'll stick with my P220 SAO.
None of these reports, or the resulting lawsuits, can be taken at face value. Plaintiffs have every reason to color the truth, whether consciously or unconsciously, because they want to believe they were not at fault. SIG Sauer has every reason to protest its innocence, because the P320 is so popular. And the fact that these lawsuits are about guns, a very polarizing subject, makes the jury verdicts both for and against SIG suspect.
Personally I find it curious that a number of these reports come from the Army, because the military M17 and M18 have a manual safety, which is supposed to make it mechanically impossible to fire the gun whether there's pressure on the trigger or not. Are soldiers carrying the gun with the safety off?
"Also FTR, Sig not being "able to reproduce" an incident proves nothing, neither pro nor con, other than their inability to reproduce the problem. You can't prove a negative, so they could try a million times and not reproduce it, and it still counts logically as signifying absolutely nothing of any statistical or mechanical significance."
I disagree. While it is true that being unable to reproduce a problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist, there is value in testing that indicates the issue is not endemic or a common occurrence.
Life is risky and living life is a constant calculation of risk vs reward. There is a non-zero risk of having a malfunction or coincidence occur resulting in an accidental or negligent discharge any time a firearm is being used.
Does the evidence indicate that this risk is higher with a P320 than other models and are there advantages of the P320 that offset those risks?
That is a question for each individual to evaluate and that evaluation can only be done effectively in light of all the available information...even information that might not be definitive...like "sig could not reproduce the issue". Such an observation may not PROVE anything, but it is still a valid data point.
In my humble opinion.
This reminds me muchly of the "same" kind of problem with the eeevviill Blackhawk Serpa holsters. People kept having "accidental" discharges when drawing from the holster. . . They didn't keep their trigger finger straight on the pistol slide as they pulled the pistol from the holster after pressing the locking button. You shouldn't bend the finger to release the lock, you simply apply a slight side pressure, keeping the finger straight along the holster. But what do I know; I've only been using a Serpa as a duty holster for 10 or so years.
Thank you for this comment. Sherpa is the best retention holster for a 1911 due to where the safety is located.
I guess the next pistol purchase will be a Hi-power clone instead of the Sig.
The 1911 had it's history of ND's but was considered much safer that the glocks in the early 2000's. My interpretation is operator errors. This includes that time when the LEO carried his 1911 into the MRI scanner room. The very powerful magnet jerked his gun out of the holster and slammed it to the inner side of the scanner magnet. With the sudden stop of the gun inertia threw the firing pin forward. The magnet had apparently pulled the drop safety to the side allowing said firing pin to strike the primer causing the discharge of the firearm. I attribute the operator error to primarily the MRI scan room not being locked when a tech wasn't there allowing the patient/LEO/Firearm carrier unfamiliar with the layout of radiology access to the scan room.
SIG is a reputable firearms manufacturer with an enviable track record. If, and it's a very big "if", they had a problem with the 320 and they say they fixed it, I would take them at their word. Nobody likes conceding that while handling a gun they made a dangerous mistake and endangered themselves and others. But I'm sure that's what happened. It's a bad idea to allow fraudulent lawsuits to advance in the courts, they encourage corporate cowardice like S&W keyed locks in their revolvers and magazine capacity limits.
I've owned a West German SIG P-228 since '99, operates flawlessly. Other than a couple of old Winchester rifles, it's the only gun I would never sell. I have friends with 320's and they love them. Owned plenty of 1911's in the past but there's no local gunsmith that I'd trust to work on one now. Gun places around here want to sell, not fix. rick m
The point at issue isn't how common the occurrence is, it's about whether it could happen at all.
Sig makes excellent weapons, but in the end, they won't be judged by engineers and statisticians, nor even the average gun buyer; they'll be judged by 12 people too stupid to get out of jury duty.
"Cannot reproduce that" is like polling 5000 scientific experts about heliocentrism in 1633, and ignoring Galileo. Science is not consensus.
Sig can point to not being able to reproduce it, but 80 other incidents say uncommon ≠ impossible.
So when you get to a tort case jury, they will, correctly, determine that the manufacturer produced a weapon which rarely, but demonstrably, malfunctioned, yet marketed it to the public any, on the logical theory that the damages they'd be assessed would be rare.
That jury will then rightly assume the manufacturer was playing dice with people's lives, and issue judgements in response to such bean-counter logic which will bankrupt the company.
{cf. the Ford Pinto, among other examples}
The response to "we couldn't reproduce it" will always be "because you had a vested interest in pretending it was flawless, but reality has indicated differently." Followed by verdicts with lots of zeros after a whole number.
The correct response to "We couldn't reproduce that" is "Try harder".
Sig is in the position of Westinghouse trying to invent a light bulb and failing, after Edison already did it. Failure is indicative of incomplete testing. Nothing else.
And all the serial failures potentially indicate is how rare the malfunction is.
1 in 1B being a better number than 1 in 1K.
But (spitballing) I bet Sig hasn't tried to reproduce this 1B times yet, and in fact hasn't tried 1000 ways to reproduce it, they just tried it the exact same way XXX times.
That isn't how you approach this, if you're serious.
Ask the people who designed airliners about that, and how they got to the current passenger safety record vs. what it was like in the 1950s and 1960s. And despite decades of diligence, nobody bad tested Sully's scenario until after it actually happened.
"Nature will always side with the hidden flaw."
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