Tuesday, March 11, 2025

That's the way all armies and all governments do business...

 

I'm only surprised that the author of this article hadn't figured it out long ago.


Reports have increased in recent months that European states send obsolete weapons to Ukraine, including those that are known to be unreliable and ineffective in combat. These facts raise certain concerns about the quality and effectiveness of the assistance provided by the West to Ukraine. Let’s look at some examples that have become known through open sources and reports from the battlefield.

One example is Spain, which sent a batch of CETME L submachine guns that were withdraw from service more than 20 years ago and known for their reliability issues. Experts question their effectiveness in modern warfare despite being upgraded before shipment.

Another example is France, which sent artillery pieces that have failed in battle, raising questions about their ability to provide effective support. The French CAESAR self-propelled howitzers, which were hailed as high-tech weapons, have proven to be far from perfect. According to Ukrainian military sources, these systems are prone to frequent breakdowns and suffer from insufficient shooting accuracy, which is especially critical considering the significant role artillery plays in the current conflict.

Moreover, about a thousand mortar shells supplied by Bulgaria and Romania have been found to be defective. Some Ukrainian military reports say, some of these shells fail to explode and others misfire, which not only reduces the effectiveness of combat operations, but also creates additional risks for military personnel.

Such cases are not exceptions, but rather the norm. Western countries are actively disposing of outdated and withdrawn weapons by sending them to Ukraine. However, Kyiv has little choice but to accept what the allies offer, despite the fact that the quality and effectiveness of these weapons leave much to be desired.


There's more at the link.

The United States has done exactly the same thing, of course.  If our armed forces had demanded an extra one or two hundred billion dollars for fresh weapons and ammunition, Congress would have slapped them down in short order.  However, weapons for Ukraine are an entirely different matter, and politically correct at that.  Therefore, that expenditure is quickly approved.  However, the weapons will take months, if not years to manufacture:  so our armed forces take their oldest, least serviceable hardware and ship it off to Ukraine, replacing it with new-production weapons and systems as they come off the production lines.  It's a well-known procurement sleight-of-hand technique.

Of course, it's inevitable.  No nation can produce fresh hardware out of thin air.  It has to be ordered, raw materials and parts assembled, manufactured, tested and approved before it can be sent - and if we waited to do all that, the nation needing it would have ceased to exist long before it received what we'd promised.  At least, by sending older, less capable equipment, we're giving them something to fight with, which is a lot better than nothing.  Nevertheless, it does leave a nasty taste in one's mouth.

There's always the alternative:  to capture equipment from an enemy and "repurpose" it by donating it to another country or third party.  South Africa did this for years during the Border War.  It captured literally tens of thousands of small arms, hundreds of anti-aircraft weapons, landmines, rocket launchers (so many of them that the Soviet RPG-7 became the standard rocket-launcher of the South African Defense Force), and so on.  Three units of the South African Army were equipped with captured Soviet light anti-aircraft weapons (ZPU's, ZU-23-2's and M1939 [61-K]'s), and captured latest-generation Soviet missile and radar hardware provided valuable information to South Africa's own designers (and was shared with the USA, Israel and others).  When South Africa was developing its G5 155mm cannon, it required a stop-gap long-range weapon, and therefore leased several Soviet M-46 130mm cannon from Israel, which had captured them in combat against Arab nations (and took them back after enough G-5's had entered South African service).  In addition, the vast majority of the weapons South Africa captured from Angolan, Cuban and other services during the war were given to UNITA, which promptly used them against their former owners.  South Africa could therefore claim, by the strict letter of the law, that it had not supplied any of its own weapons to UNITA.  More recently, Israel has allegedly been sending much of the weaponry it's captured from Hamas, Hezbollah and the chaos in Syria to Ukraine, although that can't be independently confirmed.

I'm most concerned about unconfirmed reports that Ukrainian oligarchs and other criminals have been selling donated US and other weapons on the international black market.  It's by no means impossible that a donated anti-aircraft missile such as the US Stinger, or its Soviet equivalent Igla (sometimes nicknamed the "Stingerski"), might find its way into the hands of a terrorist organization that will use it to shoot down a civilian airliner or three.  That could paralyze the entire air traffic network in Europe and the United States for months.  If any such weapons are sold to outsiders, let's hope and pray they're old ones that no longer work!

Peter


9 comments:

Justin_O_Guy said...

Yeah,, all those dollars we sent? Not worth much either

Riddle said...

While in Nicaragua, I found an antique store out in the country. While perusing around, I found, laying on the dirt floor in a corner a partially crushed bugle, and a 19th century bayonet, one of those 18-20 inch long giant old bastards. I got the bayonet and cleaned it up well enough to read US on one side and 1899 on the other. Turns out in the early '30's, we had shipped 3000 Krag-Jurgensen's to the then gob'ment down there to fight Sandino and his rebels. I had found some of Roosevelt's largesse. I brought it home, had some explaining to do with TSA, but it was an antique and I got it through. Still got it.

jadair04 said...

I don't understand why this is a bad thing. It's been reported that russia pulled equipment out of long term storage, and they kept fighting.... any weapon is a weapon (to be used accordingly). Why have we forgotten that?

Don C. said...

Say, didn't the Taliban re-purpose some equipment they found lyin' around Kabul & Bagram Air Base in August 2021? We should have bought it from the Taliban & sent THAT stuff to Ukraine. Could have gone overland rather than ship it by sea or air - cheaper that way. Why didn't our smart army guys think of that?

Anonymous said...

weapons per say, is a follows. it depends on WHO gives the okay to have them made.
back in 1978, I was part of a team testing the Carl Gustuf 84mm rocket launcher. it was hands down better than ANYTHING we had then. plenty of different rounds could be fired thru it. it had back up iron sights to the optic.
come "show day" there where 5 generals in the stands to watch. well 2 of them did. Marine generals. they even got down and fired the weapon with us (?) then took out note books and took notes of what we really thought of it.
the army didn't buy it. we got the POS Dragon instead at 3-5 times the price. they dropped the Dragon after gulf war one I think it was.
then in 2004-5, I watching the "news" and see a bit on SF troops using the Carl G in the sandbox. and they going on and on about how great it is for the mission there.
and we could have had it by 1980. but I guess the right people didn't get paid off to get it.
then too, the USA has a habit of giving away a lot of our weapons to "others" as a way to bring them to "OUR" side of things too.

MN Steel said...

Almost everything that can be sold to civilians has been sold out the back door on places like GovPlanet, Coleman's, eSarco Inc and other surplus sellers by many names. I know I bought a lot of stuff, brand new in the wrapper, that would have been nice to have been issued to me a few years before.

Police have requisitioned a bunch of the military vehicles, small arms and ther equipment to resemble soldiers in all but training and some tactics.

A lot has been outright destroyed, like the 600K+ stored M-14s and a bunch of other conceivably useful firearms under Clinton and many states and cities.

There is still surplus, but there isn't much left compared to September 10th 2001, and the time to manufacture new got longer with every factory that got shipped overseas.

A T-64 with a rebuilt powerplant, remote control and a load of rounds can still cause damage if the T-64 is there to be converted. An M-14 that has been recycled will never shoot again.

lynn said...

Yup, nobody gives away their best stuff.

Anonymous said...

The anti air missiles don't actually have to work well enough to shoot down an airliner. They just need to be fired at some airliners to disrupt the air transport system.

Unknown said...

There are pretty much no modern ground weapons systems larger than man portable (or able to be mounted to a Hummer) that have extended combat experience. The fighting in Iraq did not last long enough to really stress the systems, and the fighting in Afghanistan mostly stressed the mobility of systems, not the effectiveness.

So issues like the French artillery systems not being reliable and accurate would not have been known as they were never really tested.

There is a lot that looks good on paper, or when testing brand-new versions in a controlled environment, but don't actually work well in real-world combat (especially when you add in the dirt and mud)

There was a story not long ago about a US built laser system for anti-drone/anti-mortar use that was being sent to Ukraine and how the 'experts' in the US were complaining that this would delay it's production because the use there wouldn't be under controlled conditions with certified observers, so it's official testing program was being delayed.