The propaganda erupting from both sides of the Russia-Ukraine war has grown to such stupendous volumes that it's very hard to figure out fantasy from fact. Even experienced Western intelligence experts (?) are at odds over what this, or that, or the other "fact" really means.
Some reports paint a gloomy picture for Russia. For example:
Is Russia Running Out Of Tanks?
[Covert Cabal estimates that] initial satellite images showed a total of 6107 tanks in all depots in 2021, whereas their most recent count only shows 3,345. However: “Virtually every one of these tanks left is in absolutely horrible condition. Before the war it was probably closer to 50/50, but those good ones since have been the ones that were grabbed from storage first.” They also note that the initial number was almost certainly higher than the ones they could count, as they were probably better vehicles stored in garages. They estimate that pretty much all of those are now gone.
. . .
“Ukraine reported that Russian troops tried to break through using 18 motorcycles and 10 civilian cars.”
If Russia is launching assaults without a single military vehicle to provide firepower or protection, that suggests that they’re nearing the end of their stockpiles of tanks and BMPs. Sending such pathetically equipped troops into the teeth of drone-armed Ukrainians is tantamount to admitting their meatwave attacks are merely suicide missions.
This suggests that all usable Soviet-era tank stockpiles have finally been depleted.
The tables have turned, and Putin’s Russia is now in dire trouble
Russia’s “hot Keynesian” war machine is now in the same state of exhaustion as the imperial German war machine in 1917. Germany had been able to preserve something close to a normal civilian economy over the early years of the First World War but the Allied blockade, chronic shortages, lack of manpower and money eventually forced the military to take over the whole productive apparatus. That too failed, and ultimately incubated Weimar hyperinflation.
Russia has depleted the liquid and usable reserves of its rainy-day fund. Military spending almost certainly exceeds 10pc of GDP in one way or another and it is being funded off-books by coercing the banks into lending some $250bn to defence contractors, storing up a crisis for the banking system.
. . .
The latest Russian offensive has largely petered out, at terrible human cost. Russia is not close to conquering the four oblasts so presumptuously annexed. “The movements on the map are tiny, and have nothing of strategic value. Ukraine is big enough to trade space for time,” said a Western military expert on the ground.
“The Ukrainians can’t take back lost territory, but they’re not going to get rolled over either. This has come down to a war of economic attrition. It’s what’s happening in the Russian rear that decides this.”
Winning: What Is Possible For Ukraine
Russia’s declining oil production, and declining oil prices, means it will need loans from the West to rehabilitate its collapsing rail system, oil production and economy after the war with Ukraine ends.
The Russian rail system is collapsing right now. Nothing can stop this from happening, particularly while the war goes on. The collapse will continue, even after the war ends, because Russia lacks the skilled manual labor to build or maintain the old-style axle bearings, and can’t obtain new coil bearings quickly enough even if the West offers them for free because of the lag time in building new production capacity. A massive Western relief effort costing at least a hundred billion dollars would be required to rehabilitate the entire worn-out Russian rail system, beds and rails too, not just new rail cars. Still more money would be needed for all the other critical infrastructure fatally run down by the war.
How Russia took record losses in Ukraine in 2024
Last year was the deadliest for Russian forces since the start of the full-scale war in Ukraine: at least 45,287 people were killed ... Russia lost at least 27 lives for every square kilometre of Ukrainian territory captured ... The true death toll for Russian forces increases significantly, if you include those who fought against Ukraine as part of the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics.
That all sounds very depressing for Russia: but then, there are other reports - like these.
Procurement: Russian Spending Exceeds Everyone
Russian defense spending reached nearly half a trillion dollars last year, which is 6.7 percent of GDP. It is also more than the combined spending of all the other European countries. Russian spending is expected to reach 7.5 percent of GDP in 2025.. . .
The first major war in Europe since 1945 will end with murmurs and recriminations over how it happened and if it could happen again. It will happen again as it has for the last few centuries. The last thing Russia will ever give up are its wars of conquest.
The Russian Military Moves That Have Europe on Edge
With President Trump and many other world leaders preoccupied with the war in Ukraine, some Europeans are growing alarmed about what the Russian army has been doing much more quietly along other stretches of its border with Europe.
. . .
At a defense ministry meeting late last year, Russia’s Defense Minister Andrey Belousov said Russia’s military must be ready for a conflict with NATO. At the same gathering, President Vladimir Putin said the West was alarming its own population by suggesting that Russia was ready to attack, and that current tensions were NATO’s doing.
. . .
Russia’s increased spending has pushed arms factories to capacity, prompting military industrial firms to expand production lines and open new facilities, according to European military officials.
In 2021, before the invasion, Russia made about 40 of its main battle tanks, the T-90M, according to Western intelligence estimates. Now it is producing nearly 300 a year. A senior Finnish military official said almost none are being sent to the front line in Ukraine, but are staying on Russian soil for later use.
Production of artillery cannons and munitions is expected to rise by around 20% this year, and drone quality and production have increased significantly.
“The Russian military is reconstituting and growing at a faster rate than most analysts had anticipated,” Gen. Christopher Cavoli, commander of U.S. forces in Europe, told a Senate committee this month. “In fact, the Russian army, which has borne the brunt of combat, is today larger than it was at the beginning of the war.”
In a February report, the Danish intelligence agency warned that Russia could launch a large-scale war in Europe within five years if it perceived NATO to be weak. A cease-fire in Ukraine would allow Russia’s military to be ready even faster, Western military officials warn.
All of the above reports cannot be simultaneously accurate. The outlets publishing them have their own degree of bias, of course, but the underlying facts speak of two different realities. Putin can afford to draw out the conflict in Ukraine, because it's not costing an unaffordable price at present. He's even importing cannon fodder from North Korea, rather than use his own people (as he did in previous years). Furthermore, his armed forces are gaining hard-won combat experience in an environment filled with the latest military technology. By now they're much more experienced than almost any European force they might face on the battlefield. For that matter, they're now more experienced in conventional warfare than the US armed forces, which have learned a lot about counter-insurgency warfare in recent decades, but not much about large-scale conventional operations.
Ukraine has fought valiantly, but it's lost almost a generation of its young men on the battlefield. It can't afford such casualties much longer. Its population is minuscule in comparison to Russia, which can absorb battlefield losses much more easily. Ukraine has been an invaluable laboratory for Western arms manufacturers, who've been able to test their products in actual combat, and it's helped to develop certain new avenues of war such as the use of unmanned vehicles in the air, on land, and at sea: but machinery alone can't take and hold ground. It boils down to people.
Russia may be much weaker than the Soviet Union was, economically and militarily, but it's still a whole lot stronger than most European armed forces, and its service personnel are battle-hardened. If I lived in Europe, I'd be a lot more worried than most Europeans appear to be . . .
Peter
30 comments:
Never underestimate the ability of a Russian to suffer. They are an implacable foe, it's why every American war scenario in Europe ended in nuclear exchanges, every one. As for their designs beyond Ukraine, the Europeans have cause to be blasé.
Russia against Ukraine supported by NATO and America.
Fixed that for you friend.
So far, our stock of advanced weapons has been severely depleted. The rare earths needed to build more are not mined in Western Countries, nor is the refining of rare earths available due to decades of EPA and such.
We have to BUY our rare earths from Russia and China, and both has stopped some time ago selling meaningful amounts TO the west for some odd reason.
Reports from England, Germany and others indicate that they cannot fight a conventional war for more than a few weeks at best. Something about decades of social engineering that spends money for welfare instead of arms and makes dying for your country not so appealing.
That and shipping arms, ammo and TRAINERS to Ukraine for some thousands of days to build up and lose what 3+ NATO trained Armies?
CIA driven propaganda wars doesn't make that slow manpower saving Russian meatgrinder we keep on feeding Ukrainians into with leftovers from NATO a failure.
Look to how "well" the Mighty US Navy is doing in real time against the Hothi. Hard to bomb into the stone age folks who live in the stone age yet continue after HOW MANY Thousands of Days of the "Special Military Operation" against them to continue to be effective.
A modern US Carrier LOST a 60+ million dollar aircraft from evasive maneuvers INSIDE the battle group defensive ring. Against a pathetic POOR Nation supported by Iran who has LESS the GDP of Maryland.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/19/missile-drone-pentagon-houthi-attacks-iran-00132480
Reports of phalanx being used as emergency stopping of drones are being reported as ships are running out of Missiles.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/02/middleeast/phalanx-gun-last-line-of-defense-us-navy-intl-hnk-ml/index.html
Do you think China and Russia have a decent idea how many we have left on the cupboard?
Maybe we should think hard about how it's NOT the 1980's and we need to defend America first?
Russia is defeated, again. They are out of tanks, again. The Russians are facing hard economic times, again. They need Western (!) investment. Oh, and Ukraine is going to rebuild their entire rail network (didn't lots of those electric substations get blown up already?) with European sized rail lines. To make it easier to move NATO supplies East via rail. Whoops, I mean to keep the Russians from moving West. How could things go int he other direction for other reasons?
This is just another recycled neocon line. The Ukrainians have been out of money for a couple of years now. We should stop giving them any of ours and stop being involved in yet another power USSR collapse border war.
You're right that the reports cannot all be accurate.
However your last comments also cannot all be accurate either.
- he's importing troops from N Korea, instead of using his own people.
- those people are gaining combat experience.
- Ukraine meanwhile is losing so many people it cannot sustain operations much longer
So Russians are gaining valuable experience watching the N Koreans fight? Or they gained the experience in past years and now they don't need more?
And the Ukrainians are losing so many people that the experience the survivors have gained is not useful?
The reports I've seen on other sites about the Russians using mostly allied troops e.g. Bulgarians in past years also doesn't really fit with the Russians gaining valuable experience.
I'm also quite skeptical of Russia spinning their tank factories up to full wartime output, but putting almost all of that war production immediately into storage for some future war with western Europe.
Does that make any sense? Unless they can't find troops to man those tanks to put into Ukraine. Perhaps it's like the Blitz, where they had more planes than pilots.
Russia has reinvented "stormtrooper" infiltration tactics. They're what works in high intensity trench warfare. You move small numbers of men quickly, with maximal use of cover and concealment.
Armored vehicles are quickly and rather easily destroyed or immobilized by drones, modern ATGMs, RPGs, and mines. Masses of men and trucks are obliterated by artillery with drones spotting for them. Three or four men on motorcycles often get through to their objective, slowly building up an assault force that "suddenly appears out of nowhere".
It was reported that Starmer has plans for a draft in the UK, but that immigrants will be exempt. The New English won't have to fight.
AHhh, a brief introduction to what is called "The Fog of War"!
Man, I thought you were smart.
Honestly, if you say you believe a word from Western Sources, I'll stop reading your blog entirely.
Nailed it.
Jingoism has blinded our host, and many others, unfortunately.
It'd be laughable if it weren't for the fact people still listen and believe this tripe.
Lets use the 'trailers buried in the desert' one again, its been a while since we last used that one, they probably forgot by now.
To M. Both of sets you mentioned can in fact be correct. Back when the war first started I remember hearing who the Russians were using as troops. A mix of the following. Militia from the provinces Ukraine had been attacking for the last 7 years, Mercenaries, Belerusians, and some Russians.
Since then they have called up large numbers of Russians, but I have yet to see anything showing them actually being deployed outside of small numbers, and recruiting N. Koreans who are doing a lot of the fighting and dying.
So it is perfectly reasonable that Russia's manpower has yet to be truly effected. If their generals are running things, and they have groups of soldiers to advise or command, then they are gaining experience by testing out tactics/strategies/weapons, as well as bloodying the leadership, and removing the more incompetent ones, all at someone else's expense.
Ukraine however is using up their own manpower. They have no choice. Yes some NATO members have been found dead in country, but the heavy lifting is on Ukraine as pretty much no where else is willing at this point to take the hit politically by sending their army in.
The bit about Russia spinning their tank factories up to full wartime output, I have no idea. They might, they might not. Honestly there is no real way of telling at the moment. Frankly if it was me, I would most certainly be stashing away large amounts of the fun stuff for a rainy day. Especially since the clouds seem to be gathering.
I think you forget that Russia is a closed economy. Unlike the West, they can manufacture everything in house which means they don't really have weak links in their supply lines.
The point is I tend to agree with the OP, there is so much propaganda that it is extremely hard to tell anything. That being said, history tends to support not counting the Russians out in any regard. It is probably better to consider them having vastly more manpower and equipment at hand than to underestimate them.
I would also like to remind you that under Obama the US high command was gutted and replaced with political appointees. The rest of NATO is likely in similar straights. What this means for us is that you should likely consider taking the intel reports with a grain of salt. After all would an intel officer rather give good data that the high command disagrees with and potential risk his career. Or would he be more likely to water things down so things seem more in tune with what said high command wants to see.
- W
Jingoism? You might want to look up the definition of that word. I don't think it applies here.
There have been days when I have viewed the war in Ukraine as the Spanish Civil War (1936-39) for the 21st C. A large "Live Fire" exercise on someone else's territory, test outing the equipment and doctrine.
Like that Civil War, some observers are learning from it, some are just "observing".
Our Host said: "Russia may be much weaker than the Soviet Union was, economically and militarily, but it's still a whole lot stronger than most European armed forces, and its service personnel are battle-hardened. "
Well honestly a large group of Cub Scouts on sugar highs are probably more well armed and agressive than say the Belgian or Spanish forces. The WHOLE of the uniformed forces of the UK (Army, Air force and Navy) is ~180K members. The US Marine Corps is 167K+. The UK has about 200 active fighter jets(mostly Eurofighter), The Marine Corps has over 350 F35B and F35C. France has 180K in the army (though some part of that is the Paris Fire brigade for reasons only discernible to the French). Germany has about 60K. So yes the EU/UK will be needing clean trousers if they try to tackle Russia directly. That said Russia REALLY seems to be hurting. T-55 and T-62 have been seen in use. Those are early 1960/ late 1950 vintage tanks. They're sitting ducks to even infantry with modern anti tank weapons or Bradleys with the 25mm chain gun let alone M-1, Leopards or Chieftans. Russia has also been using North Korean troops which are almost as effective as a T-55. Russia would NOT be using those tanks and troops if the had anything better, they're scraping the bottom of the bowl.
Ukraine isn't in any better position. They have been getting leftover/surplus US/UK/EU hardware, but even that is starting to run out. And our manufacturing processes are SLOW. And the Ukraines' limited manufacturing ability is within range of Russian strikes. Manpower wise Ukraine does have a relatively small population and they've been hit almost as hard as the Russians so they're likely in a worse state than Russia.
As our host has noted this is time for a rational solution based on realpolitik. Unfortunately, Putin seems to be bound and determined to be a blend of Peter the Great and Stalin and wants to restore Greater Russia. Zelensky has his own blend of Hubris and Napoleonesque short guy bravado driving him forward. Best thing that could happen is to have these two gentleman struck by lightning and some reasonable adults sort things out. Sadly, that seems unlikely even if Putin and Zelensky leave the stage as there seem to be no shortage of idiots to step in and fill their shoes
Yep, just as America's forever wars serve multiple purposes- enriching the MI complex and testing weapons and theory. Iraq is illustrative, that 30 years allowed us to test and then shift away from an armor led ground force to the rise of mobile infantry units as the primary land force we employ. Much to the chagrin of the armor corps I'm sure.
I would not trust anything in the Western "media." Ru started the SMO fast and light. In a few weeks they achieved key Black Sea objectives (Crimea land bridge) and were at the gates of Kiev. They pulled back from Kiev thinking they had a deal. the "war" since then turned into an attrition fest which favors the larger combatant.
Ukr started the war with Europe's largest army, trained and equipped by us for eight years. Set up behind massive fortifications in Donetz. Ru destroyed that army and two others that we rearmed since then.
I would say one constant of the war/SMO is that the Russians got smarter and more deadly in their weapons and tactics over time while Ukr has gotten progressively dumber. Battlefield adaptations, causing maximum casualties while minimizing losses (small squad attacks/motorcycles etc.), turning thousands of Soviet Union era bombs into precision standoff weapons (FABs), innovating in drone warfare, resisting the urge to carpet bomb cities (like we do).
Russia is coming out of this militarily, economically, politically and geopolitically stronger than it came in. Mostly at the west's expense.
The rest of the world sees the evil behind our "rules based order" and would rather choose the BRICS side.
Our stick is not working anymore (anybody here want a Red Sea leisure cruise aboard a 100,000-ton floating bomb dodging Yemeni missiles for weeks on end?).
We're also out of carrots as the tariff wars are showing.
Ukraine was a disaster for Europe and bad for the US. Soft power is gone and we're running low on hard power.
FAFO.
Canuck guy
Hey Treg, I'd be wary of viewing the use of T-55s and T-62s as a sign of weakness. The Russians clearly never throw anything away (which might have something to do with being invaded time and time again).
There are virtually no tank on tank battles in Ukr and most armor is lost to drones, artillery and man portable weapons. So why risk your best equipment? Also the 55s and 62s are being used as close-range mobile artillery to break up strong points from what I've read.
Ru is cranking out new advanced tanks, but they aren't wasting them in Ukraine.
"In 2021, before the invasion, Russia made about 40 of its main battle tanks, the T-90M, according to Western intelligence estimates. Now it is producing nearly 300 a year. A senior Finnish military official said almost none are being sent to the front line in Ukraine, but are staying on Russian soil for later use."
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/another-shocker-wsj-reveals-russia
Military nerds can debate the T-90M versus western tanks but it seems pointless as massive tank on tank battles look to be impossible when a $2K drone can take out a $10M Abrams.
As a European, I say let the Russians be Russian in Russia, and everyone else get their filthy fingers out of everyone else's business.
one dumb question:
if Vladimir Vladimirovich' forces (and funds) have been so decimated/(centimated?), why are the Europeans still so nervous?
Yup. In fact, the propaganda machines are running at 120% worldwide. I am constantly astounded at the liberals prognostications here in the USA.
Always amusing to watch someone else's war. The current one sometimes takes on the aspects I saw in Vernor Vinge's books featuring his Programmer-at-Arms. We definitely have our 'unthinking deeps' and I wonder about the so-called hyperintelligent beings pontificating about the war since.....last time I saw them they looked like mice. Fierce little mice, but still, mice.
Using cars and bikes during muddy spring weather means they can go places armored vehicles can't and much faster.
Russia has been keeping its top equipment and troops pointed at the EU countries along their western border and/or allies'. They are maintaining if not increasing capabilities.
Russia and its allies (China, Iran, north korea, etc.) can and will engage in total war immediately when needed without concern for politics or public sentiment.
Ultimately, war is won by taking and securing land with ground troops. Russia et al are stronger there than EU countries.
Don't like it, but the west is behind and relatively weak...
Thing is, both things can be true at once--Russia's economy could be going full steam ahead right now while also being economically unsustainable. Read the parts in Adam Tooze's The Wages of Destruction about pre-WWII Germany's arms buildup.
Also, the fact that some of y'all think that Russian sources are more trustworthy than Western ones is hilarious. At best they're equally factual, at worst...well, the Russians thought that all they had to do was kick in the door and send the whole rotten structure crashing down. Three years later...
This question has bothered me for a while. I read the Russian postings of UKR casualties and equipment losses and typically divide them by two...and they are still big numbers. A comment above mentioned the "militias" of the annexed territories and yes, I agree....perhaps the Russians are making them "earn it". Some other observations, subtle but important: the "kit" of Russian soldiers is way better than two years ago. Uniforms are standardized and they have a lot of good kit. Also, battle drills (like firing artillery) seem to be more precise and crisp. And I watched a bit of the Moscow parades (or rehearsals) on Youtube...it appears they have a lot of stuff, new stuff, and there were no embarrassing vehicle breakdowns in Red Square. Now, on the other had, a blogger who follows this conflict posted that the UKRs have "gamified" their drone strikes: awarding points per confirmed kill that can be turned into "cash" to buy equipment for the unit. A Russian soldier is worth between 2-6 points, artillery pieces and tanks worth up to 50. The top scoring UKR unit had amassed over 16,000 points. True? Who knows? But I recall when the Russians were paying their troops "bounties" on western equipment destroyed and that was a big issue in the western media. This conflict is definitely being fought in the information domain as much as in any other
Three principles I like to try and remember when looking at articles like this:
1) "the fog of war" ain't just a well-turned phrase. If the combatants don't know what's actually happening on the battlefield, nobody else is likely to either.
2) remember history. Yes, the Russian way of war has always been to bury the enemy in numbers, and most of the time it's been successful. But Russia also has a history of lying through its teeth about its military might. Is this alleged buildup along the borders real, or is it a deception akin to the Allies' Operation Fortitude prior to D-Day?
3) when the data you have isn't useful, look for data that is useful. I look at Russia's population - 150 million, half female and more than half over the age of forty, and I don't see where they can find the manpower for a large army without gutting their civilian workforce. The casualties they're already taken are approaching one million, out of a population of military-aged males that can't be more than thirty million. That's not a sustainable level of losses, is it?
And yet, none of that really reassures me, because it's all guesswork based on untrustworthy data. What do you do when none of your data is trustworthy?
Three Years later against Ukraine supported by America and NATO, the west's vaunted weapon systems, NATO training and 3+ Ukraine armies destroyed...
NATO and America's rare earth dependant Missile systems are nearly gone with "resupply" expected in a few years by contracts. IF China or Russia sell us the rare earths as WE Don't mine nor refine them in America.
Case in point see my comments and LINKS above.
BTW did you like Trumps "the Hothi's surrendered: BS report yesterday.
Looks like Afghanistan 2.0 naval version to me. We ran out of missiles and had to retreat as 2 MORE Navy strike fighters lost from the Truman.
A TARBABY is still effective to destroy Briar Rabbit and Empires.
LOTS of good comments.
I read all sides of the info/propaganda shtick.
I believe Russia is killing vast quantities of involuntary, sacrificial "soldiers". Also killing highly experienced combat veterans. Also destroying vast quantities of Ukrainian/Western gear.
I think Russia has, on average, a 10 to 1 kill ratio over the Notzees. In some skirmishes, Russians might lose 1 to 1, or worse, casualties. That's the nature of combat.
I think Russia is producing the HELL out of everything war making. Why? They never shipped their production overseas. They never sold off their "old" production machinery, they never scrapped their machinery for a few pennies on the dollar, like we did, it's still producing goods, like it should be.
Everything coming out of Western sources is lies, misinformation, disinformation and more lies.
Our institutions have been captured by the "long march" of Satanic, Commie, pedo, traitors.
This also explains the Weat's engineered slide into degeneracy and accelerated entropy.
As Glen Fithie might say, "but whatta I know?"
OH YEAH! I know about the "long march!"
Go to Simplicius’ Garden of Knowledge
Russia is winning so hard they're now on Day 1169, and still are nowhere near fighting their way back to their highwater marks from about Day 100. They've destroyed over half of their tanks, 20% of their aircraft, their Navy like their Air Farce is now MIA (and what is accounted for in their naval forces is now mostly submarines at the bottom of the Black Sea), all while suffering more troop casualties in three years than the total body count of US casualties in Vietnam, Irag, and Afghanistan combined, plus all the Russian casualties in Afghanistan in 10 years there.
And Putin has to keep half of his army back to subjugate the other -stans, and keep China from annexing Siberia, both true since centuries ago.
And still the inevitable Russophiles are clinging to Any Day Now™ (Year Four Edition).
Once again, for the slow learners:
Both sides can lose.
Russia cannot win.
Neither of those truths are incompatible.
Also true:
Despite any amount of Ukrainian corruption, Zelensky is absolutely the first non-Russian-puppet leader they've had in 35 years in Ukraine. And the Ukrainians would rather live like things are now than be ruled by Russia ever again.
Putin dare not quit, at peril of position and life itself. And to date, he's run through one or two dozen generals, and thousands of field-grade commanders, which will take Russia 50 years to replace, if they even could.
And even Trump's hubris at thinking he could chivvy Vlad into a peace treaty have given way to a realpolitik realization that the war was started by Putin, and there's nothing Trump can do to dissuade Putin from continuing it except to ensure Russian forces continue to be ground into fertilizer in the Donbas. Even the Norks are losing any enthusiasm for the game.
Chances of this war continuing until at least one side is completely exhausted, and not a minute before, are 100%.
Call me when Russia's flag flies over Kiev, and the Ukrainians submit willingly, rather than institute the next 50 years of insurgency.
As if.
You're going to watch this slow-motion train wreck continue until someone goes down decisively.
Period.
Chances of a Russian final total victory: right around 0%.
Chances of continued slaughter all around: 100%.
I stand on my Tarbaby comment.
Ignoring logistics is not a good thing. Opinions don't matter on the battlefield.
Between Ukraine and the Hothis "success " things for America is looking like Afghanistan 2.0 and that bodes badly for the reserve currency status of the dollar.
Empires fall slowly then suddenly due to stupid wars and debt spending.
Once the dollar is worthless the CIA abilities to cause trouble will end.
Michael the anonymous
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