Wednesday, May 28, 2025

Bring back the duel?

 

My buddy Lawdog ponders the custom of dueling to resolve differences, and whether it should be brought back.  Go read his thoughts, then come back here.  I'll wait.

I'm in two minds about his ideas.  In the days of the duel, it certainly underlined the relative importance of honesty and civility.  Spread untruths about someone, or be rude and obnoxious to and/or about them, and there might well be a known (and likely) consequence.  The old saw, popularized by Robert Heinlein, that "An armed society is a polite society" was always a fiction, but even so, most people preferred politeness (or at least an icy indifference) to a hot-blooded, potentially fatal meeting on the dueling ground.

On the other hand, there were those who took advantage of the duel to train themselves to be merciless killers.  There are more than a few tales of those who never hesitated to issue a challenge because they knew their own skills were superior to nine out of ten of those they might have to face.  (The few occasions on which they found out, the hard way, that their opponents were, in fact, better fighters than they were produced some gripping tales, particularly the panic and even disgust on their faces as they died.)  In places where custom allowed it, an uncivil, impolite type could hire the services of a noted duelist to represent him, or pay a criminal to concoct a situation in which he could plausibly issue a challenge to someone the principal wanted dead.  This happened too often to be coincidental, and was one of the reasons advanced to do away with dueling.  Could dueling be reinstated without that danger?  I don't know how that could be done.  Cheating, one way or another, is as old as the human race.

Would it make us a less moral people if we allowed dueling?  In some ways, yes, it probably would;  but there's also the grim reality that death is and always has been a part of everyday life, and dueling kept that reality firmly in mind for many of the "talking classes".  It does to this day for those living in areas controlled by "strong men" or "warlords" or particular gangs.  Talk smack about them and you're going to suffer for it, quite possibly terminally - and no, they won't give you the chance to arm yourself and discuss the matter on equal terms.  "Might makes right" is another long-standing human principle.

I submit it would not be a bad thing if we could ensure that false, unjustified "mean speech" has consequences.  Today, too many people behave as if they can insult, denigrate or run down another without ever having to pay for it in any way, shape or form.  I think that's wrong.  If you do that, you should be subject to sanctions of some kind;  but people use the "free speech!" argument to get away scot-free.  Perhaps we should talk about "expensive speech!" instead, to make those who sling insults so freely consider that their words might (and possibly should) carry a price with them.  What that price should be, and who should decide whether and to what extent it applies, and who is to extract payment . . . those are whole new balls of wax to add to the fun.  We certainly can't trust the courts to do the job - they've let politicians lie without let or restraint for donkeys' years.  Some courts appear to be part of the lie themselves.

What say you, readers?

Peter


24 comments:

Andrew Dornbusch said...

In a similar vein, I had a co-worker who wanted to issue all drivers paintball guns. If someone was a jerk on the road, you shot his car. The police could then just watch for cars with lots of splotches ... "I don't know what you did, but you ticked a bunch of people off, so here's a ticket." How to apply that to speech would be an interesting challenge.

M said...

There would also have to be social consequences for being in too many duels. And those consequences would have to be severe.
One - okay.
Two - starting to get dicey.
Five? Okay, now he's just a bully.
Social consequences also worked because society was small and everyone knew each other. This is not the case today.

Tsgt Joe said...

There are a lot of folks on the internet who are ruder than they would be in person. I often see comments on line that would earn the person a punch in the face if not worse.

Mark D said...

The switch from swords to pistols actually prevented a lot of th abuses. Becoming an accomplished swordsman required time and practice along with natural physical ability. Lining up the sights on a single shot pistol and squeezing the trigger is considerably easier and eliminates most physical advantages one duellist may have over another.

Mark D

E. C. said...

@ Andrew,
My mom works as a crossing guard, and she's suggested - nay, outright pled with - our local police department to issue her a paintball gun for those who speed in school zones. Me, I like the idea.

Xoph said...

Issue a license. Probate court to review the request, must have probable cause. Duel date and location are published, at least a week in advance. Each person gets 2 in their lifetime. If someone repeatedly gets challenged and prevails, something is wrong there too, but it just may be someone who doesn't back down from bullies. Subject to judicial review. A standard challenge would need to be set, I would suggest knives so you could stop at first blood. There is also something visceral about having to be upclose. Additionally you could opt no weapons. Both parties have to agree as to who pays for what.

Charlie said...

Sadly, it would never work nowadays. The courts are corrupt and evil, the legislatures are corrupt and evil.

Anonymous said...

-Randale6-

Bring it back for slander and defamation. Flintlock pistols only.

Anonymous said...

Probably just a made-up story, but I remember reading about a duelist who had short man syndrome. He ran into a blacksmith who was about six and a half feet tall. Waited until he got what could be conceived as an insult, and issued a demand for a duel - anywhere and any weapon. The blacksmith said okay, and asked for sledge hammers in six feet of water. When the duelist finished laughing the two became good friends.

Gerry said...

I have no problem with the concept of dueling but to be fair it is all about economic class.
Two rich dudes try and kill each other, it's a duel.
Two working class dudes try and kill each other, it's just murder.
Yea yea, duels have rules Gerry. Please see Jim Bowie's sandbar "duel" .

G-man said...

FWIW, unarmed mutual combat is still legal in Texas. "Apologize, or we can take it outside" - If they don't and they follow you out, it's implied consent. Game on.

Sherm said...

Because you should never miss an opportunity to cite Mark Twain - https://storyoftheweek.loa.org/2021/11/how-i-escaped-being-killed-in-duel.html

The Other Andrew B said...

There are many negatives about dueling, but a few positives. Want to insult someone's wife? OK, but put some skin in the game. When people insulted Andrew Jackson's wife, they could be quite sure that their life insurance premiums were about to skyrocket.

Anonymous said...

That's just one of the many ways in which firearms serve as "equalizers". The maxim that "Sam Colt made men equal" (and women, including against men) wasn't perfectly true; firearm proficiency also varies, just not nearly as much as proficiency with melee weapons. But it certainly decreased the discrepancies.

Celia Hayes said...

I did a story in one of my Lone Star Sons where a duel was proposed over a trivial matter by a hot-tempered local man - and the challenged party had the choice of weapons. And he picked watermelons thrown at each other. Whereupon, everyone had a good chuckle, his friends talked the challenger down, pointing out that it was a silly matter and the choice was on the challenged, and if he went through with it, he would be the laughingstock of three counties. And yes, they all sat down and had a convivial time afterwards...

Aesop said...

Duelling?
Probably not. Capital punishment for insults is a bit harsh.

Legal grounds for a justifiable unarmed beat-down?
Absolutely yes.
Put 'em in a ring. Bare knuckles.
Referees, and full rules.
No helmets.

If either party is too decrepit for that, the offending party in all cases, of whichever side, gets 10 lashes with a cat o' nine tails.

That keeps healthy folks from picking on the weak, and it prevents the weak from hiding behind their infirmity to shoot their mouths off.

Any dispute to that from the alleged offender?
Both parties are so punished.
Whippings or brawls to be settled on the spot.
No appeal, no delay. Within the hour.

When giving offense, and/or challenging one to a duel, would result in a guaranteed whipping to one or both parties, apologies and civil politeness would be far more forthcoming, and unless both parties agreed to defer, the whippings would be mandatory.

Takes all the fun out of being a bully or a loudmouth, except as entertainment and an object lesson for bystanders.

Borepatch said...

Former Georgia Governor Zell Miller challenged TV interviewer Chris Matthews to a duel in 2004.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXpuEFansic

ruralcounsel said...

Trying to put boundaries on someone's speech, no matter how you rationalize the need for it, runs in to the same problem. Who gets to decide. There isn't any person, entity, or institution I trust to do that fairly and without bias.

I'll stick with a crude and insulting verbal world. It's more moral, if not more civilized.

0007 said...

In Weber's Honor-series universe, dueling in allowed but under strict rules.

bravokilo said...

Human affairs should be settled with challenges of intelligence, not animal force.
If someone challenged me or a loved one to a "duel', I would kill them on the spot as a valid threat, and no jury would convict me.
Different times, etc.

Mad Jack said...

"I'll be happy to put a bullet or a blade into you at your earliest convenience."

My great-grandfather spent time out west and actually saw one duel take place. Two cowboys, both in their cups, shot and killed each other outside the saloon. On another occasion great grand-dad shot and killed an Indian who climbed in his hotel room window with the intention of murdering and robbing him.

The formal duel doesn't take place today, but we see the replacement in road rage incidents and gang related shootings. Now me, should one gang member kill another, that's fine. We have one less criminal to worry about. Road rage is a bit different and shouldn't take place on the highway. Have the combatants repair to remote setting and settle their differences. Again, if they both agree, where's the harm?

Anonymous said...

city park..new orleans

Anonymous said...

I don't remember the details, but Abraham Lincoln, once challenged to a duel, stipulated conditions almost absurd that would have favored him similarly. I do remember those conditions involved his height, and some water as well.

Quartermaster said...

The first problem is solved by not allowing any substitutes. If they challenge, then stand up to take fire. The other problems can be solves, if people were honest, by a committee that judges the incident to insure that no one has been put up to challenge in the stead of someone else. In short, professional duelists are not permitted.