Tuesday, March 19, 2019

New Zealand, ethics, morality, and reality


When I posted about last week's massacre of Muslims in New Zealand, I wasn't surprised - saddened, yes, but not surprised - to read commenters spouting the usual anti-Muslim drivel.  All over the Internet, there are those pointing fingers, comparing the lack of publicity accorded by the mainstream media to Muslim massacres of Christians to the overwhelming publicity given to the Christchurch shootings - as if two wrongs could somehow make one of them right.  Essentially, they're blaming Islam for what happened to Muslims in Christchurch.  It's been a sickening display, and I'm not the only person who's felt that way.  Here's another blogger's opinion - only one of many I could cite.  (Read the comments there, too, if you can stomach some of them.)

Let me say at once that I have no tolerance for terrorism at all.  I've spent many years of my life fighting it, in many forms, including armed conflict with terrorists (as those of you who've been reading here for a while will know;  if you haven't, try this post for a sample, and follow some of the links provided there).  As far as I'm concerned, no matter what its origin or motivation or expression, terrorism is a crime against humanity, and terrorists have no place in our society.  I've had the opportunity to see to it that some of them didn't, and I have no regrets about that whatsoever.

The trouble is, many of those who have a knee-jerk reaction against Islam in general, and Muslims in particular, have little or no idea what they're talking about.  They've been fed a diet of extremist commentary about Islam, and they parrot off the propaganda they've absorbed like automatons.  If you try to engage them in reasoned discussion, you can't - they simply duck and dive off at a tangent, refusing to actually engage, instead finding new propaganda points to spout.  The New Zealand tragedy has been no exception.

"Fifty Muslims have been killed in New Zealand by a terrorist."

"Well, they shouldn't have been there.  They should go back to their own countries instead of invading ours."

"What's that got to do with fifty of them being murdered?"

"If they hadn't been there, they wouldn't have been murdered!"

"Can't you feel any sorrow or compassion at all for the victims?"

"No, because it's their own fault they were victims.  They shouldn't have been there. Besides, what about all the Christians killed by Muslims all around the world?  Why don't the media ever report those?"

"They do report them.  It's just that most people don't bother to read or watch world news reports - they stay with local news, and read only those internet sources that align with their own interests."

"No, they don't report them!  What about this, or that, or the other incident?"

"I can show you mainstream media reports about all of them."

"Well, those are the exceptions that prove the rule!"

And so on, and so on, ad nauseam.  The same web sites keep churning out their propaganda, and the same idiots keep absorbing it and prattling it as if it were Gospel truth.  None - or, at least, very few - of them have ever actually lived among Muslims, and gotten to know them as individuals.  Those who claim to have done so have often been expatriate workers in Muslim countries, where they lived in ghettos that provided little or no contact with local people except as servants or employees.  That's not enough to understand them.  Some, particularly returned servicemen from "the sandbox", will speak dismissively, even contemptuously, of Middle Eastern and Islamic culture (or what they perceive as the lack thereof).  When I wore uniform, and some people were trying to kill me, I did the same about them and their culture.  It seems to go with the territory when one's fighting a war.  It takes a certain amount of distance (not to mention time) to recover one's perspective.

I'd like to propose a moral and ethical approach to such atrocities that I think can be valid for almost everybody, of any religion or none, of any philosophy of life or none.  It's based on the Golden Rule, or ethic of reciprocity, which is found in every major religion and philosophy in one form or another.  Christians have for centuries paraphrased it as "Do to others as you would have them do to you".  The beauty of this approach is that it governs not just how we act, but also how we react.  If you don't want someone to do something to you, don't do it to others.  If you would react negatively if something was done to you, you should react negatively when it's done to others.  It doesn't matter whether you like them or not, whether you agree with them or not, whether you want them in your country or not.

That puts the New Zealand mosque massacre into perspective.  If it's wrong to shoot innocent Christians, or Westerners, or whatever, then it's automatically also wrong to shoot innocent Muslims.  If one reacts to the murder of members of one group with anger, disgust and vengeful fury, one should feel the same way about the murder of members of another group.  It's a universal standard, one that applies equally to everyone in every situation.  It doesn't give us a cop-out, allowing us to say, "Well, it's their fault it happened to them, because they shouldn't have been there".  No.  If it shouldn't happen to us, it shouldn't happen to them, either.  Forget all the qualifications and excuses and weasel words.  If something is good, it's universally good.  If it's bad, or wrong, or evil, that's all she wrote, across the board.  Simple as that.

The Golden Rule also forces us to examine our own conduct and attitudes.  Everything really does begin with us.  What do I want others to do to me, or not do to me?  Why?  Am I doing them, or not doing them, to others in my own attitudes and actions every day?  If I am/am not, what do I need to change to get to where I need to be?  This does not suggest that we need to become "willing victims", or roll over and play dead, in response to violence directed against us.  It means that we need to find balance, find our own roots, so that we can respond (and, if necessary, defend ourselves) with confidence that we're doing the right thing.  (That's very much the Christian approach, too, for those who espouse that faith.)

The fundamental element in all this is that morality and ethics begin with us - each of us, as individuals.  If we allow others to think for us, or react on our behalf, without considering whether or not they have the right to do so, or are right in their approach . . . we make ourselves complicit in their error.  If we condemn an action when it's done to us, but condone it or make excuses for it when it's done to others, we expose our own shortsightedness and lack of balance.

Animals just react.  Human beings think first.  That's what distinguishes us from animals.  If we abdicate that right, and that responsibility, heaven help us all.

Peter

24 comments:

Gaffer said...

It needs to be said, often and loudly. Thank you for speaking out against intolerant stupidity.

McChuck said...

TL;DR - "White Christians should never, ever fight to defend themselves from invasion and domination."

Thanks for making your stance on white genocide and cultural suicide completely and utterly clear.

Clayton Wrobel said...

I agree with you, of course, but there are things that also need to be said.

First: No, the Mosque in Christchurch should not have been terrorized. What the shooter did to his neighbors was heinous. As far as I know they were all there legally.

Second: The Mosque has been associated with radicalization. When a group is associated with violence, the non-radical members of that group HAVE to cooperate with authorities to prevent violence. It is the only way that the group will remove the stigma. Is it fair? Of course not. But people are what they are. When their is distrust between tribes, there will always be problems. Reference every immigrant group that came in large numbers to these United States, such as the Pole, the Irish, and the Italians. Oh, and a member of the gun club that the shooter hung out at called the police about the talk going on at the club long before the attack. Unfortunately nothing came of it. Our tribe has to police our own as well.

Third: The best defense against a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Some reports claim the police arrived in 17 minutes. Still WAY too long for 100 victems.

STxAR said...

I've struggled with that. How CAN two ideologies that are so opposite coexist with each other? I'm sure that if we all follow Christian principles, it will work out fine. But when one side desires to live in so far in the past, and will kill to force everyone else to do the same, how does that work?

It's Pandora's box, and this has already escaped...

Glen Filthie said...

PBBBFBFBFBFFFT!

And you, O Saintly And Enlightened One - you sail through this cesspool of moral turpitude and filth, rebuking and admonishing the fallen wrong thinkers while staying as clean and pure as the driven snow!

When are you going to go scold your gentlemanly friend, Vox Day, Pete? How many people that talk just like you - literally lost your heads on video in the Middle East while those yodelling mutts sawed it off with a dull blade?

Look, nobody is defending what happened in New Zealand. And the fact of the the matter is we all wish you were right and we were wrong. I would love it if muzzies could settle here, mind their own damn business and be a part of the country. But when their numbers grow, so do their demands. They want Sharia law, they want polygamy, they want to be free to indulge honor killings, female genital mutilattion and all the rest of the rituals that those animals go for. Then they start attacking their hosts. If we try to distinguish good moslems from bad - some other sanctimonious twit starts scolding us about racism. The muzzies circle their wagons around their turdies and defend them. Then the media attacks anyone they’ve wronged who dares to speak of it.

What part of ‘if you go around picking fights, you’ll eventually get one’ is so hard to grasp? How are we supposed to work out a solution when - in the worst countries - even talking about it truthfully is a hate crime?

You are in no position to hector or badger anyone.



Brother PIlot said...

Where to start? First, I agree that it's the individual to blame, and only the evil individual who opened fire is to blame. Not the victims most certainly, not New Zealanders not the shop owner who sold the gun. The man who pulled the trigger is responsible and NO ONE ELSE.

Second, regarding muslims. First, realize that Islam is the enemy of Christianity. Islam denies Christ. (Quran 19:30-35, 5:116-117, 4:157, 9;30, among others) Yes they have some good things to say about Him but Islam denies Christ as the son of God and denies His deity. Scripture has some hard things to say about denying Christ: 1 John 2:22. Matt 10:33, Luke 10:16, John 14:6 Matt 12:30

THAT DOES NOT give us leave to attack muslims. Protecting ourselves from the radicals is only wise. But and it's a really big but, BUT Christ also said in Matt 5:44 "But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."

Islam is a filthy lie dreamed up by the devil of hell himself. Those trapped in Islam are deluded, and mistaken and yes, our enemies. We are to pray for them. Soft-pedaling the truth of what Islam is does no one any favors. The people trapped in that death cult are those we as Christians are COMMANDED to love and pray for.

Accommodate islam? No. Persecute muslims? Also no. Pray for their salvation. And realize what it will cost them when they do leave islam for Christ.

milton f said...

The golden rule works well, for those of a faith to accept it. For those who are not inclined to anything of a biblical sort, the non-aggression principle is the answer.

It appears that the New Zealand shooter aggressed upon the people in the mosque. If that is true, then he is in the wrong. If someone, or someones have aggressed upon the shooter, then his response should have been directed against them and them alone. Individually.

I find it highly unlikely that all of the dead and wounded aggressed upon the shooter. It is possible albeit very unlikely. Like the commenter above, I pray for my enemies. Well, I try to. But I have zero compassion for the initiators of violence, and zero tolerance. By the way, the linked to article about your service in South Africa was well written and extremely insightful. Thank you. Peace.

E.D.M. said...

No one was ever asked in NZ or the US if they wanted to be replaced by foreign invaders.

Face it. There is a coordinated campaign to replace the native populations of western countries with peoples that do not share our tolerant values.

I do not advocate for murder, but when ANY discussion of the problem is suppressed...

America's future looks like Brazil if we are lucky, South Africa if we are not.

Also, I am not convinced this was not state action. There are some very suspicious things about this incident. Why did one of the suspects flee to ? What other curios events happened the same day across the globe. Why is the video being censored so vigorously? How convenient that this incident will serve as an excuse to disarm NZ. I realize I sound like a kook, but stranger things have happened.


Kamas Kirian said...

I saw the postings about Christians being killed in other parts of the world by Muslims more as a push-back from the msm proffered narrative that white people are the problem, especially those right-wing Christians, this is just another example of their cruel ways.

Because you don't often find reports about such violence directed towards Christians in our Western Media unless you go digging for it. 50 Christians killed by Muslims in Africa or Asia isn't front page news here. But 50 dead Muslims in New Zealand is for some reason. It's media bias, and deserves to be pointed out.

August said...

Look, there is a very basic theory- diversity + proximity = war.

Or perhaps a more sophisticated form of that, but it serves.

And here's the deal, ALL of it fits. Regardless of who engages in the violence. It is all these really stupid leaders, choosing to allow this mass migration. Both populations are at risk- it is the leaders, the elites who have power and walls and their own security who are responsible.

But people get called fascist for pointing this stuff out, which is stupid. Sure, it is a bit like being told, 'I told you so', but we told you so for a reason- so that this crap could be avoided.

Rob said...

We live in an age of constant propaganda. Everyone is plugged in (67% of the world has a cell phone) and everyone is buried by the propaganda.

The "Golden Rule" is a great idea but I don't think it fits most of the goals of those putting out the propaganda. "Live and let live" is a joke these days I'm afraid....

We are entering dark times, I hope someone can find a way around this, I'm not seeing it.

I've had hopes on technology, it's managed to feed us all so far (7B+ people) but I see technology being used (today) as the tool for control & pushing a private agenda.

SirHamster said...

> "Well, they shouldn't have been there. They should go back to their own countries instead of invading ours."
> "What's that got to do with fifty of them being murdered?"
> "If they hadn't been there, they wouldn't have been murdered!"
> "Can't you feel any sorrow or compassion at all for the victims?"

It is horrific for Muslims to get murdered. As it is for Christians to get murdered.

The cause is incompatible cultures getting thrown together by traitorous leaders. Those decision makers bear the blame for all of the innocent blood.

It is important to show compassion and comfort for the individuals who need it. But that is treating the symptoms, not the cause.

Beans said...

Well, maybe.

Yes, I want everyone on all sides to mellow out and be one with the universe, but... 2 things.

The shooter is an ass and tried to set up a religious war because he is a nutter and wants less people on the planet, and wars are great for doing it. His actions had nothing to do with 'white pride' and 'right wing politics' and only about creating anarchy, which is a progressive left-wing movement responsible for assassinations, bombings, murders and such since before the times of the Scottish Levelers during the English Civil War. Which, anarchy movement that is, is just the violent front of the socialistic-progressive movement. So when will the media and the governments involved start denouncing left-wing violence and the political and social movements powering it? Hmmmmm?

Item 2. Well, as to Muslims... When a radical Christian sect (like the Westboro whackos) goes all nutter, violent and socially stupid, pretty much all the rest of the Christian world denounces them, and rightly so, for the bunch of losers and weirdos that they are.

So, when a radical muslim sect goes all nutter, violent and socially stupid, where's the rest of the supposedly peaceful religion of peace people protesting the actions of their fellow co-relionists? (Insert the sound of one hand clapping....) Hello? Where are the huge protests against the murder of a Catholic priest in a Catholic church in France? Where are the huge, worldwide protests led by all the peaceful muslims against organized gang-rapes of non-muslims by muslims? (Insert sound of screaming in space...) Where are the hordes of muslims protesting the murder of gays, journalists, Christians, white women, adventurers, priests, nuns, or anyone else who is murdered for the furtherance of the muslim religion? Insert the sound of crickets chirping...)

Yes. We shouldn't be crowing about a radical mosque being attacked by a leftist nutjob who is trying to start a war between the radical and non-radical muslims and the rest of the world. We shouldn't. We Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek. To try to forgive our enemies and change their hearts by love and peace.

But...

Muslims believe in the Dar al-Islam (all lands currently under control of Islam) and the Dar al-Harb (the lands of War, being the lands not directly under control of Islam.) Even peaceful muslims believe this. And any land the muslims declare as theirs, whether it's taken, or taken back, like Spain, they consider it still theirs.

So, yes, we don't want to be a vile, hate-mongering anti-muslim oppressor. But they are, every day and in every way, cutting any compassion or tolerance away, bit by bit, until one day all that will be left is hatred and anger. Just look at what the two muslims in Congress are doing daily with their actions. Look at what happens around every mosque they put up (can you imagine deed restrictions and shutting down of businesses for a Christian church? Yet it happens whenever a mosque is built. BBQ joints get sued and shut down because the peaceful religionists can smell pig being cooked...)

The complete lack of tolerance by the organizations of muslims has come home to roost.

I don't want another round of Crusades. But.. well.. the Crusades were in response to oppression, evil and pressure by Muslims.

I want to get along. They don't. So, exactly, how am I to resolve this issue?

Bob said...

I find it rather ironic that the place where the rich elite are building fabulous hideaways and fortified compounds to escape to when the world goes tits up - New Zealand - all of a sudden has the same problems as the rest of us.

So they are now in the process of totally disarming all the local "citizens" so they can be safe behind their walls with their armed guards. Funny how unforeseen consequences can rise up and bite even the privileged in the butt.

I my opinion, we have no alternatives left but to watch as our latest civilization slowly slides it's way back to the next stone age.

Whee.

McChuck said...

"Thou shalt not defend your people nor your culture nor your faith. Thou shalt allow the heathen barbarian to despoil your land and rape your people as they wilt."

You know, somehow I missed that commandment.

Peter said...

@McChuck:

1. In your first comment, you admitted you didn't read my article. If you had, you'd have noted that I addressed the point you were trying to make - but from a very different perspective than that you assumed.

2. In your comment immediately above: would you please identify, and name, one single victim of the Christchurch mosque shooting who ever committed any of the crimes you enumerate? If you can't, then your comment is utterly invalid, and says far more about you than it does about anyone else.

I think you need to take a long, hard look at yourself. Your comments on this blog, particularly your tendency to suggest shooting anyone who doesn't comply with your prescribed solution to various problems, suggest that you may be at risk of becoming the very monster against which you preach.

I think you need help, sir. I hope you find it before it's too late.

Hansjörg Demand said...

Peter,

You spoke well and there is nothing to add to your words.
But it leaves me speechless to see how many utter nutjobs, hatemongers and conspiration theory freaks your blog always uses to attract.
Next thing we might be reading in your comments section is „George Soros is responsible for that massacre“ or „Mossad bought the ammo“ or perhaps „The shooter was a a free mason“. Another kook might even find out that the whole thing was a hoax - fabricated by either the mainstream media, the jews or the muslims themselves- and that grainy video was taken directly from an Ego Shooter PC game...
What in blazes is the reason that makes a human mind degrade to that pathetic level of idiocy? Beats me.....

To quote that famous south african blogger: Verily, the mind doth boggle! ;-)

Hansjoerg

Minion Beta said...

If I may chime in, all of those Muslims in the two mosques that were attacked were either refugees or *legal* immigrants. By the laws of our country, they are entitled to the same right to be free of violence as any other person living in New Zealand. New Zealand is probably the most tolerant and accepting country on this little green planet.

If you want a dash of irony with your breakfast, not only are armed police watching over mosques here in NZ cities, so are the local 'criminal' gangs. Basically, as a country, we're saying "This is NOT part of our culture, so we're doing our best to not let it happen again."

Crazy guy came in and shot up people he didn't like. Anything else anyone gets from that is a symptom of their own prejudices and immediate cultural surroundings.

Jim Carrey (some sort of American I assume) blamed the Christchurch shootings on Donald Trump. Really? I mean that seriously... Really?

Tom Grey said...

Good Muslims, like good Christians, are fine.
All terrorists are, somewhat, evil -- killing of innocents. (Like what Nazis, commies, and US & allied bombing did?) War is hell.
There is some part of Islam that is at war with Christianity.
Those people don't think murdering Christians is bad.
Christians are not, quite, at war with Muslims -- tho US actions are often portrayed that way by the Dem media.
The hypocrisy about condemnation, double standards are infuriating. I'm a bit outraged.

How many Christians in Nigeria have been murdered since January, 2018? Maybe 6000?
I challenge you to link to a front page newspaper story, or prime-time TV news lead that talks about these killings.
https://www.christianpost.com/amp/pure-genocide-over-6000-nigerian-christians-slaughtered-mostly-women-children.html
The June statement by Church leaders:
https://www.csw.org.uk/2018/06/29/news/4017/article.htm

More, and worse, killing -- with far less publicity. In Nigeria, it's not clear that they are mostly Muslim, it's more a tribe of cattle grazers vs. farmers, with double standards:
" We view the recent arrest and quick convictions to death of five Christian youths defending their communities against herdsmen attacks Demsa, in Adamawa State as part of the conspiracy and support by the government. Unfortunately, no armed herdsmen has ever been arrested for prosecution even when they are caught in the act."

The Nigerian state, like many Muslim states, accepts violence against Christians.
You say you don't.
Most media, who are fast to condemn white nationalists AND to call for gun controls on legal folk, the media spend more time on this crime than on worse deaths where the victims are Christians. That's an objective fact, easily checked by NYT, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC, even Fox.

All terrorism is bad. That which kills 500 is worse than that which kills 49; and killing 6000 is even worse. Publicity should be more proportional to the deaths.

Of course, auto accidents kill among the most. So common they are seldom news. Sort of like Christians being killed.

Jason said...

All terrorism is horrible, true. But sadly that's also probably irrelevant. This is age-old tribal conflict stuff that speaks to the primitive brain on the same level that lust & hunger does. You can't reason it away and no amount of calls for level heads will in the end prevail. I might just be overly black pilled though.

Chris Nelson said...

Peter,

I really don't know what to say. There are thousands of facts and histories surging in my mind.

The actions of the shooter was horrific and evil. But I think this dark day was preceded and influenced by the the intentional actions of many of those in power. And all of us, regardless of religion or country are merely pawns and statistics to this apathetic, evil, elite and their legions of ignorant minions.

The physical world is truly the domain of Satan.

Chris

Jester said...

Jim Carrey (some sort of American I assume) blamed the Christchurch shootings on Donald Trump. Really? I mean that seriously... Really?

Nope, Canadian. He has a lot to say about everything American and anyway he can tie something he does not like to Trump.

My view which is adapting to the evidence that comes out was this act was bya nutjob. Time may tell who or what really inspired him.

My deeper thoughts are that yep, there is a heck of a lot of genocide that is happening in areas that don't get a lot of attention. Then genocide happens by anyone other then those adhering to the Islam faith, instant world wide news. The only time it's possibly mentioned very quietly if Islam sects attack each other but not even seriously at that. Islam attacks someone and it may make the media cycles for a few days depending on where in the world it attacks in Europe or North America but it's generally a quick pivot to gun control/laws or don't rush everyone in to the same lump judgement. (Mind you guns and gun owners are rushed in to it anyway..)
The disconnect is real out there sad to say from my years of observation on to the goings on.

TCK said...

The Golden Rule says to treat others how you want to be treated yourself.

It would be the height of culturally-imperialistic racist Islamophobia to impose our own beliefs on the Muslims after they've spent the last 1400 years shouting at the top of their lungs how they want us to treat them.

SQT said...

If I felt the Islamic community would also abide by the golden rule I’d agree with you. I haven’t seen much evidence that I can count on that.