I'm getting very tired of, and very sad about, the bigotry and/or hatred currently being directed against Islam by many in the blogosphere. A few examples:
Ann Barnhardt (click on the link, then go to her blog entry for September 14, 2012 at 1.12 PM MST - it's not possible to link to that entry directly):
"I have done what many consider to be the most hard-core, serious koran burning to date. I bookmarked the filthy damn thing with strips of raw bacon, and then I burned the satanic screed page by page after reading the demonic filth therein contained.
. . .
Any time you bastards want to get real about this, I'm your flippin' huckleberry. Come and get me, and then WATCH WHAT HAPPENS.
. . .
The only way you fight and destroy this evil is by RIDING OUT TO MEET IT. No capitulation. No compromise. No appeasement. No apologies. No negotiation. And then you lay down the righteous assbeating to end all assbeatings, and you do not stop until the evil is totally, completely and utterly destroyed. Anything less is a sin against God and your fellow man."
(She's also put her 'hard-core' demonstration on YouTube.)
Grouchy Old Cripple:
"As for their offense at the latest insult to Islam, we'll start showing respect for their cult founded by an insane pedophile when they start showing respect for other religions. I'm sick of these 7th Century barbarians constantly being offended. Treat 'em like the children they are. I remember my father telling me when I would cry that he would give me sumpin' to cry about. You people are offended? Howza 'bout some MOABs. I'd say nuke Cairo, but I don't want to see anything happen to the pyramids, the Sphinx, and the Egyptian Museum. Bombing a few mosques would not bother me a bit. Treat the barbarians like the barbarians they are.
Here camel boinkers, here's sumpin' to offend you. Boom!
The next world war will be between Islam and civilization."
Sultan Knish:
"Muslims are ... willing to pay the price in blood for slavery, their own slavery and ours, for a book of slavery, written by an owner and abuser of slaves, who created a religion of slaves, where the optimal position was to stand on as many people as possible while reaching for heaven.
The men who fought to make us free placed value on their lives. The men who fight to enslave us place little value on their own. Whatever material pleasures they enjoy in this life, little girls, hashish and wealth, will be vastly improved upon in the afterlife. And they buy their way into that afterlife by killing us, as they have been doing for over a thousand years.
. . .
The essence of the vendetta is that it is eternal. It can only be resolved by marriage, by mingling two bloods into a single clan. If we agree to become Muslims, we can be part of their clan. Without that we are forever the targets of their rage, inferior in their minds, yet materially superior, despised in the Koran, but somewhat triumphant in land and wealth. A religious paradox that can only be resolved by subjugating us or by converting us."
I could post many, many more sources with similar views . . . but why bother? They're all making the same two mistakes.
1. They're assuming that because Muslim fundamentalists hate, fear and attack the West, all Muslims do so, or want to do so. That's ridiculous. I've known many Muslims in Islamic countries, and in the Third World, who don't believe or behave that way at all. (I wouldn't be alive today if Muslim friends and acquaintances hadn't saved my life on at least two occasions.) You may as well say that all Catholics hate Protestants, or all Protestants hate Catholics, or all Christians hate Jews. The fact that some of each group may hate the others mentioned doesn't make that a universal norm. To put it another way, if you claim that fundamentalist Muslims represent and speak for all of Islam, you might as well say that the demented dogmas of the Westboro Baptist Church or the Dove World Outreach Center are representative of the beliefs of all Christians.
2. They're ignoring the reality that 'what goes around, comes around'. It's also known as the Golden Rule, taught not only by Jesus but by almost every major religion known to humankind. It's not predicated on others treating us as we wish them to treat us: instead, we have to take the initiative and treat them that way. This applies even to those who hate, fear and attack us. It doesn't mean we can't defend ourselves against unjust attack - far from it! - but it does mean that if we project hatred, fear and loathing towards them, or attack innocent people with our bombs as Grouchy Old Cripple suggests, we're essentially giving them the right to do the same to us. I find it particularly sickening that self-proclaimed Christians see nothing wrong in behaving like this, despite our Lord's injunction.
I'm no supporter of radical Islam, just as I'm no supporter of radicalism or extremism in any shape or form. Whether fanaticism be political, social, economic, cultural, philosophical or religious in orientation, you can't reason with a fanatic. They've got the original one-track-mind approach to life, the universe and everything, and they're extremely dangerous to the rest of us. I'll gladly join forces with anyone opposing extremism and extremists . . . but I won't do so by becoming equally extreme in my hatred and/or condemnation of them. If I do that, I make myself as bad as they are.
Unfortunately, such opinions count for little in the face of emotional outrage. As long as we choose to react before we think, we'll continue to make the same mistakes, time and time again - just as our extremist enemies do. Why should we be proud that we exhibit the same faults and failings that they have, and perpetrate the same mistakes that they make? Aren't we supposed to be better than they are? Don't we profess to be 'civilized' in comparison to their 'barbarism'?
*Sigh*
Peter
45 comments:
Peter...I agree in principal and do think the wholesale condemming of a religion is not the right approach. Then again those that are the fundementalist type that are initiating the violence... they are fair game.
I vote for the candidate I think is the better choice not his/her political party. I condemn the ignorance and fear mongering that a minority of muslims propogate while not arguing against their religion per'se.
A sharp edge to walk on and I am saddened by the blanket hate many spew on both sides. I also believe that our financial downfall soon to arrive will be the fodder of official hate to hide the truth from the sheeple and provide some bread and circuses.
Thomas P.
Another point most Christians miss in the 'polarizing' effect of their hatred.
Reverse the tables for a moment--even if someone were a 'moderate' Christian, how would they feel if...say...a Buddhist said "we need to wipe all Christians off the face of the earth"?
Yeah...you're not going to convert many people by saying you want to wipe them off the face of the earth.
Saturday, 15 September 2012. Sydney, Australia. An intended peaceful, (but unauthorised) protest took place here, against 'the film' that is currently outraging Muslims in many countries. Approx. 300-500 protesters, predominently males, and some women and children, paticipated, chanting, waving banners, shouting. Unfortunately, the protest was hijacked by a core of militant males, clearly intent on creating mayhem on the streets and disturbing the peace, bottles, sticks and rocks were thrown at Police, who had to resort to the use of Capsicum/Pepper spray, Police dogs, and batons. The Riot squad were also used to contain the 'rabble' (quote by Police Commissioner Scipione).
Members of the public who voiced their disapproval were attacked, with the Police coming to their aid.
Seven Police were injured, sustaining head injuries, cuts, concussion, one knocked unconscious, and one suffered a dislocated shoulder.
At least one Police dog was injured. There were arrests, with more to follow as CCTV, media and private video is used to identify the perpetrators.
At the time of posting, the furore throughout Australia shows no sign of abating.
One visiting overseas fundamentalist leader has been filmed permitting the on-stage use of an 8-year old female child, who read inflammatory statements to an assembly of 600 at an inside gathering.
Muslims throughout Australia have publicly voiced their dismay and condemnation of these events.
I make no further comment.
"Aren't we supposed to be better than they are?"
Yes, and we are better than they are. We put bacon in books and they burn down embassies. We make insulting videos and they commit murder.
Roberta gets it right this morning:
http://twowheeledmadwoman.blogspot.com/2012/09/springtimefor-sam-bacile.html
Also, Ken at Popehat has three very good articles about the man behind the anti-Islamic video and the furore over his 'questioning'. In sequence, they are:
http://www.popehat.com/2012/09/13/meet-nakoula-basseley-nakoula-who-might-be-sam-bacile-anti-muslim-filmmaker/
http://www.popehat.com/2012/09/15/a-few-stray-saturday-thoughts-about-the-the-innocence-of-muslims-video/
http://www.popehat.com/2012/09/16/further-sunday-thoughts-on-the-innocence-of-muslims-and-the-arrest-of-nakoula/
Food for thought.
Those whom I respect always have, and I always do, condemn publicly the actions of the Ku Klux Klan, Westboro Baptist "Church" and any other extremist organization causing harm in the name of Christianity.
I have no quarrel with any Muslim who identifies as a devout Muslim and condemns the actions of the extremists.
However, just as I consider anyone who refuses to condemn Westboro and the Klan to be equally culpable, I have little patience for those Muslims who go along and keep quiet.
MichigammeDave
@MichigammeDave: I hear you, but you're not considering the wider picture. If you speak up in that way, you might make yourself and/or your family a target of the extremists. That applies to any fundamentalists anywhere, of course. Imagine trying to speak up against the Salem Witch Trials in 1692/93!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
You'd have been classified either as a witch, or a supporter of witchcraft, in a heartbeat! The same consideration applies to Muslims who oppose militant fundamentalists. Many of them have tried to speak out, or prevent their mosques from being used by such individuals and organizations . . . and they've died for it. The rest have learned that if they speak out, they'll suffer for it, and won't be supported by the West for doing so. Therefore, they shut up.
Consider how the West, instead of protesting the atrocities committed by the Saudi religious police, expects its citizens to conform to that country's norms and 'go along to get along'. That implicitly abandons Saudi women and minorities to such oppression, rather than trying to change it. Makes you think, doesn't it?
Peter,
Always nice to hear a voice of reason.
As for speaking out against such hatred, while I completely agree with your comment at 7:43AM...what about people in safe regions?
As far as I am concerned, such fulminations of hatred are unacceptable by anyone, anywhere. If we claim the west is a standard-bearer for civil discourse and tolerance, then we ought to act like it. One can be proud of one's country and unbending in loyalty to certain Enlightenment principles without being rude and offensive. If they profess to be Christians, they are rather bad Christians.
But then, my priest opens every Mass with this quotation: "Love the Lord with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind. That is the greatest commandment. It comes first. The second is like unto it: Love your neighbour as yourself. Everything in the Law and the prophets hangs on these two commandments."
I guess we'll just have to wait to see how things wash out.
Since I'm an unrepentant Atheist I see Bertrand Russell's point in referring to any religion in the following.
QUOTE: "My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race."
So,
If I feel the folks using their 1st amendment rights to denigrate Islam are a bit over the top I repeat to myself:
Sticks, stones and RPG's may break an Ambassador's bones or even kill him.
But a few well chosen words or deeds will be regarded as an insult to an imaginary or long deceased person and inflame 1.5 billion members of a specific religion to throw a cataclysmic and deadly temper tantrum.
The book of Islam is the Koran. It is their law, the written record of their ideology, philosophy and a blueprint for the ultimate aim and goal of the system. The extremists are the ones that follow the teachings of the Koran to the letter. The Koran clearly teaches that infidels (non adherents of Islam) must be located conquered and ultimately killed or converted. It clearly teaches that women are lower than animals. The teaching of the Koran is the antithesis of all that freedom loving peoples believe. It seeks and orders muslims to strive to enslave the world under this evil and totalitarian political system. Tolerance of Islam and it's teachings will result in Islam's ultimate victory.
Yes, the argument can be made that all muslims aren't terrorists. This is the truth, however, the system that they claim to follow teaches that the one's that aren't terrorists are deficient in the practice of their faith. Islam clearly teaches that ALL muslims must fight until Sharia Law is imposed globally and all non muslims are either dead or converted. Therefore, the fact that all muslims aren't terrorist can't reasonably used to make a case for the tolerance of Islam. Look at the cultures that Islam has created. It is the perfect recipe for human suffering and misery. One of two things will happen. Either Islam will be confronted and blotted out or it will ultimately destroy our way of life.
How does this affect America and the free world at this time? Unfortunately, it appears that a perfect storm has formed and made it impossible for us to effectively combat this real and very deadly threat to our way of life. Political correctness has all but placed duct tape over the mouths of dissent. We have a President who panders to this ideology and makes Jimmy Carter look like Ronald Reagan. The environmentalists have stopped us from becoming energy independent and we therefore have to involve ourselves in critical commerce and militarily in the cradle of this evil to obtain the oile we need to keep our society operating. In so doing we funnel trillions of dollars into the hands of those who hate us and our way of life and whose ultimate aim is to destroy us. Buckle up boys and girls it's going to be a rough ride.
Tom
Dear Peter,
I've agreed with you almost completely until now. Although Barnhardt, et.al. are extreme by some estimates, that does not make their tenant wrong. They understand the right to survive. They understand the difference between the Judeo/Christian ethic and the Muslim ethic. EX: The Bible tells Christians to, "...turn the other cheek..." when we are wronged. The Koran (yes I have read enough of it to know this first-hand) tells Muslims to, "...saw at the neck of the infidel..." (wronged or not) simply for not being Muslim (which they often count as insult enough). That is the main-stream of each religion, and the expected actions of the adherents of that religion. Note that the Jews have neither as a commandment.
Either you believe, or you don't, whether Christian or Muslim, and one teaches pacifism, the other violence as a basic tenant of how to act. It's as simple as that. IT IS NOT EXTREME, ACCORDING TO THE KORAN, TO BE VIOLENT TOWARD NON-MUSLIMS. Please get that through your head.
Christians actually act against Biblical precepts when they actively protect themselves. Muslims are in complete alignment with the tenants of Islam when the actively attack others outside of Islam. As for "Peaceful Muslims”; some are as vapid about Islam as Catholics, and other Christians, are vapid about Christianity. This allows for all sorts of aberrations in their actions – even allowing an illusion of being “Peaceful Muslims”. Others, offering the façade of being "Peaceful Muslims" are simply acting the Trojan Horse, an act of deceit, because there are monsters in the belly of that beast.
We of the West are either going to wake up and learn to effectively fight to be free of Islamic intolerance/arrogance — or wake up and find ourselves in Dhimmitude; the Muslim system of controlling (and taxing at will) non-Muslim populations conquered through jihad.
Been there, done that, won't go back – and won’t allow it here.
God Bless America.
Willie in California
Tom has the right of it.
Peter, I respect your experience,but you are wrong on this one.
To pick one example out of many.
Fred Phelps and "Westboro Baptist".
Most of us here will stipulate that,
Mr. Phelps and his gang are NOT mainstream Christians, and that they do NOT represent what we as Christians want to show the world.
Mr. Phelps does NOT embody the core teachings of Christianity
as we understand them.
We consider him to be an extremist,
homing in one point in the Bible and following it to the exclusion of all else. Yet the Muslim extremists, ARE following the whole of the Koran. The focus on the forcible conversion of Non-Muslims is given enourmous weight the their Holy Book.
Christians are taught to convert others through living lives of Holiness and love. Muslims (observant ones, at least) are taught to convert using "fire and the sword"
That my friend is where the two systems differ, and more importantly, why the two will never, as the Bumper Sticker opines,
"Coexist"
Ann Barnhardt IS extreme.
As I convert from Protestant to Catholic, I see that her way is the right way. I'll never have the courage of conviction that she has, but I hope not to shame the Lord with my life.
Alan Thomas.
Willie in California;
Christianity does not teach pacifism. When Jesus taught to turn the other cheek he was speaking about responding to insult, not life threatening attack. In Luke 22:36 Jesus instructed his disciples if they did not have a sword to sell their coat and buy one. The Bible also teaches that if a man does nor care for and protect his own he is worse than an unbeliever. Yes, there are sects of Christianity that teach pacifism but that is not the understanding or teaching of most Bible believing Christians.
Tom
I'm sorry, but those who maintain that Islam is this, or that, or the other thing, are mostly ill-informed. (That's not necessarily through any fault of their own - it's a monumentally large subject, and requires a great deal of study to master it.)
I wrote about this in a five-part series some months ago. Those wishing to find out more will find links to all of them in the last article, here:
http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2012/04/discrimination-distrust-and-xenophobia_20.html
Peter,
I respect you and consider you to be an intelligent and well informed gentleman with a fine gift for writing. With all due respect Islam is what the Koran says it is. I don't know if your opinion on this matter has been swayed by previous relationships you've had with muslims or other external factors.I would be less than honest your position on this matter really appears to be a disconnect from your ordinarily common sensical and analytical approach to things. I respect your right to hold the opinion but adamantly disagree.
Tom
@Tom:
"With all due respect Islam is what the Koran says it is."
Just as Christianity is what the Bible says it is? When no two Christian denominations can agree 100% on precisely what the Bible means?
No, Tom. That's an overly simplistic approach that ignores the complexity of the subject. See the five articles I referred to in my previous comment above. They merely scratch the surface of what is an enormously complicated issue.
There are no simple, cut-and-dried answers in this mess. Trouble is, too many people want them, so as to simplify their decisions. Unfortunately, the real world isn't like that.
K 9:005
Set 33, Count 91 ...slay the idolaters wherever you find them...take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush...
This is one verse out of hundreds of similar verses found in the Koran. I guess it doesn't matter to me whether they agree on what this means or not. It says what it says. What amazes me is the lack of outrage against this inherently evil teaching particularly among liberals. If we were to take out the word "idolater" and replace it with black, homosexual, jew, or any other more specific group, the left would be up in arms and San Francisco hippie ice cream companies would be donating large portions of their profits to combat the injustice.
Our way of life and our beliefs cannot ever coexist with the teachings of Islam. Islam will not allow it. They are oil and water. The message of Islam is submit or die. The Koran is quite clear on that point. Whether or not all muslims agree on this point is irrelevant. What is relevant is that is what the Koran teaches.
Tom
It seems imprudent to let pacifist tendencies turn into a suicide pact in the face of a highly aggressive and at times irrational and intolerant ideology.
That being said, it is important to target the correct enemies. Then fire for effect.
HI Peter,
Love reading your blog, you make some good points and intelligent reading.
As a former chaplain's assistant, U. S. Army, I've had one occasion to work with an Imam, and occasion to coordinate a Ramadan meeting place.
I've been "blessed" to watch those leaders of many religious denominations and learned that the best example of biblical teaching often came from those that my upbringing taught as wayward and "wrong."
I was not impressed by Islam.
Peter, can you tell me where the Koran teaches that lesson we refer to as the "Golden Rule"?
Thanks
Since I can access comments today, and bearing in mind the respect & affection I hold for you, you're off base on this one. I've no doubt there ARE followers of Islam with the 'milk of human kindness' manifest in their treatment of non-Muslims, but where's their fortitude when their more passionate brethren take to the streets and attack all & sundry? Ambassador Stevens was reportedly RAPED and SODOMIZED; Libya's "leader" is bleating because he doesn't want to lose U.S. $$. Ambassador Stevens' possibly being gay should NOT enter into all this, but I blame the current "administration" for having the tone-deafness to send a {reportedly} gay man to a high-profile position in a Muslim country. As far as 'The Golden Rule' - Islam is the ONLY major religion that doesn't preach/practice it. I watched the full version of this video {270 MILLION Killed over 1400 years} - kind of enlightening: http://youtu.be/6vPxK2azmtc .
Semper Fi'
DM
Willie from California said much of what I was trying to say, and said it better than I could.
As others have noted, while we respect your knowledge and learning, we disagree with you strongly on the whole issue of Muslim/Christian Co-existance.
I'll put it bluntly, sir.
You are wrong.
I just hope that you are never,
DEAD WRONG on this exact question.
Alan Thomas
I wish that I could find the post where this was pointed out and give the author credit.
The over simplistic view here is that Christianity went through a period where both the Church, and religion in general served as the core basis for great violence. In the last 1000 years though, Christianity has evolved and stepped away from the violence of The Inquisition, and so on. Interestingly enough, that particular piece drew a causal relationship between the violence Christianity, and the invasion of Europe by Muslims.
While much of the Muslim world has begun to embrace the "trappings" and behaviors of the 21rst Century at their core, their is the violence that is lauded in the Koran that a core sect falls back on. Couple these aspects of the Koran with the cultural history of the middle east where violence must be met with violence to send a message of respect and we wind up with the situation we see today.
I know I have over simplified things here, and there are many many more variables to be considered. I do think it boils down to this, from a foreign policy standpoint there is a limit to how you can apply US values to another culture. If you do not understand the culture and it's nuances you will end up with an embarrassing error. Hopefully those errors are only embarrassing (Can you say "Reset Button"?). When those errors are cascaded over time, you wind up with a world that is looking for the trigger event to a major conflict. So far the trigger has been a low budget film, that was available on You Tube but the evil doers spun the propaganda machine up and conducted a series of operations that have cascaded into more "copy cat" events. And today, much like in the summer of 1914 we are facing a crisis that has the potential to become a world wide conflict.
So we know the problem. Who has the solution?
I think the opportunity to launch the bombers, and surge the subs has passed... this one is not going to be solved with an airstrike like 1982 was.
@Tom at 2.02 PM: Yes, I know that sura . . . just as I know the Biblical commands about killing sexual sinners (Leviticus 20:10-16) and cutting off the hand of a woman who touches a man's 'private parts' during a fight (Deuteronomy 25:11-12). In Islam as in Christianity, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Just as we don't judge the whole of Christianity through those verses, we don't judge the whole of Islam through any particular suras.
As for your last point:
"Our way of life and our beliefs cannot ever coexist with the teachings of Islam. Islam will not allow it. They are oil and water. The message of Islam is submit or die. The Koran is quite clear on that point. Whether or not all muslims agree on this point is irrelevant. What is relevant is that is what the Koran teaches."
Funny . . . we seem to have coexisted (albeit with great uneasiness and sometimes great violence) for well over a millennium so far! There are many parts of the world where we coexist quite peacefully right now. Unfortunately, those Muslims don't grab the headlines as much as the extremists and fundamentalists do.
__________
@Jerry at 2.48 PM: Islam's version(s) of the Golden Rule are referenced here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule#Islam
__________
@Alan Thomas at 4.03 PM: As I've said before (see the five-article series referenced in my comments above), I know a whole lot more about Islam through practical experience than most people in the USA. You say bluntly that Christian/Muslim coexistence is not possible, that I'm wrong. I can't argue with you on the basis of your experience and/or understanding.
My experience and understanding (based on more than two decades of interaction with Islam in general and individual Muslims in particular, including some interactions involving gunpowder) is that coexistence is possible. We'll just have to agree to differ, I guess . . .
__________
Finally, I repeat a point I made in my five-article series mentioned above: many aspects of life in Islamic countries are cultural rather than religious in nature (e.g. female circumcision, which is never, repeat, NEVER mentioned in the Koran). If we hope to coexist with Islam, we need to distinguish between them, and work to emphasize improvements in culture as opposed to attacking Islam as a religion.
I don't suppose these points will change many minds; but I'll continue to publish the truth as I see it, and as I'm able to verify it as objectively as possible. If you choose to disagree on the basis of your own interpretation of religion, culture, etc., that's your privilege - just as it's mine. May none of us condemn the other for having a different view!
Peter - I read your post this morning and have spent all day thinking about it. I don't claim to be an expert in comparative religion. However, I do tend to judge people by their actions - or inactions.
Granted, not all Muslims are terrorists. And granted, there are some folks out there who claim to be Christians, but who behave like anything but (Westboro Baptist Church, Timothy McVeigh, the IRA, certain Catholic priests, etc.)
But IMO the difference is that the large majority of mainstream Christians decry the actions of those outliers. What I see with Muslims is that a great number of them support, either openly or tacitly, the behavior of the extremists.
The Golden Rule is all well and good, but does it mean that we should stand idly by while our enemies (and I consider Islamist extremists our enemies) gain access to nuclear weapons (Iran) or chemical/biological weapons (Syria)?
I could cite that old chestnut about how God helps those who help themselves, but that's a trite response to a confusing, muddled, and complex situation.
I don't advocate wholesale elimination of all Muslims, but I do believe that history has taught us that their religion in general is intolerant and unforgiving.
Turning the other cheek is one thing,. Turning the other cheek when the other side has weapons of mass destruction is a sure path to the Kingdom of God.
I want to get there, but not tomorrow.
Genuinely conflicted...
Peter, as others have stated, in this you are clearly wrong. I have a Koran, bought it for research on this subject. No where is there any respect for anyone outside of Islam. It is full of instructions to lie, cheat, steal, kill, etc, all who are not Muslim.
If the majority of Muslims did not approve of the "fundamentalists", let alone support them, they could crush them overnight. This might happen if the rest of the world makes it very painful for all of them, to allow their continued existence. Until they are facing annihilation, nothing will change.
Until the non-muslims of the world decide to stomp on the Muslim religion big time, nothing will change. This is what they are counting on, a head-in-the-sand view.
Unfortunately, when you remove the objectionable parts of Islam, there isn't much left. Certainly not enough to build any sort of faith around.
If the human sacrificing religions of the Americas still existed, I would think most people today would be agitating for them to be exterminated. I don't rate Islam any higher than them.
Sure, there may be good people that are Muslim, but that actually goes against the tenets of their faith. I have no intention of relying on
the good thoughts and actions of what are essentially backsliders of that faith. That would be a recipe for disaster, and that is exactly what the world is heading for.
That religion needs to change, or disappear. There is no other practical choice.
@Will:
"That religion needs to change, or disappear. There is no other practical choice."
If others said this about your faith or personal beliefs/philosophy, how would you react? When they react just as strongly to such statements, why should this surprise us?
Furthermore, this statement necessarily implies:
1. If it won't change (or be changed, by force if necessary), Islam must disappear.
2. In order to make it disappear, you're going to have to kill most, if not all, of its adherents - well over a billion of them.
3. You regard this as acceptable and justifiable.
Are you seriously arguing this? It makes the "Final Solution" look like a Sunday School picnic by comparison!
Peter -
Please allow me to respond on Will's behalf.
I'm a firm believer in live and let live. I don't agree with all of the beliefs of Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists, but I respect their religions, and feel no need to make them change or disappear.
On the other hand, there are a substantial number of Muslims who want to kill me, my family, and my fellow Christians (and others, even of their own faith - e.g., Sunni v. Shiite) for no other reason than because we believe differently than they do. I am not aware of any Hindus etc. who want me dead.
So yes, if that particular brand of Islam won't change, then IMO it needs to disappear (or be 'disappeared'). Again, IMO, it's a matter of us or them.
Note that I don't feel this way towards all Muslims, just those that are unwilling or unable to coexist with other religions.
Unfortunately, as near as I can tell, that seems to be a significant number of them.
Again, from where I stand, it seems to be a matter of us vs. them.
I really, really am disturbed about the way I feel, but I really, really don't see any alternative.
Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh..
this is how Islam say Hello.
I am born in Islamic way, my name is Juan Carlos. my mother is a Catholic.
i've read previous comments. thanks to Peter and others who gave a great comments and reference.
it is true, Islam way is the Al Quran nulkarim and the Hadists. our Phrophet, Muhammad Sallahu Alaihi Wassalam, have thought us Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala words inside Al Quran. Islam is a peacefull religion. and yes, it is true, if someone or some country attack us, we will defend ourselves. we also have the right ti live free and equal. we are also human being.
we need to respect one another..see the diversity as a gift..not a burden..
so sorry if my english is bad, but i think you all understand what i'm saying.
:)
So Muslims are terrible because they hate us and want to kill us or convert us to "Sharia Law"
Thus we cannot coexist
Thus our opinion should be that all Muslims must be converted or killed...
And, if that is our opinion of them, what should Muslims think about us?
The smart ones will realize that the people who think that are an ignorant subset of the greater culture who cherry pick whatever set of facts fits their self-serving supremacist world view and molds it into terrifying hate that bears no resemblance to Christianity, Judaism, or any religious or secular moral code.
The extremists will use these people and their words to convince the moderates that all westerners want to kill or convert them. and therefore that they cannot coexist.
AND instead of sporadic attacks that rarely affect non-government officials, these moderates will have bombs falling on their houses, military raids, and western-sponsored tyrants filling their corrupt pockets to convince them of this.
The frightening rhetoric expressed in these comments is the fecund soil of genocide. It is no more right for us to think it than for them.
How many Muslims do ANY of you commenters know? How many Koran scholars have you spoken with or read? Is it possible that you hate the teachings of the Koran because you WANT to? That it enforces what you already believe? What could have been in the Koran that would have convinced you that it wasn't a hateful document?
- A
"That religion needs to change, or disappear. There is no other practical choice."
If others said this about your faith or personal beliefs/philosophy, how would you react?
Ummm...this is exactly what the Qur'an (and its adherents) DOES say about everyone else's faith/philosophy--just more bluntly. (The whole 'behead those who insult Islam' and 'slay the infidel where you find him' things kinda gave it away.)
Hence, our reaction.
before anyone jumps on "non-government officials" an explanation.
With one notable exception and a few smaller ones, American civilians have not been directly threatened by Muslim extremists. Most targets are military or diplomatic. The loss of lives is no less tragic, however the level of panic that is sweeping Boise, Idaho is hardly warranted, infinitesimal compared to what is suffered by citizens of Afghanistan, and certainly does not justify eliminationist rhetoric.
Peter, you know of my affinity for our 4 legged critters - please, tell me HOW am I to accept THIS: http://www.barenakedislam.com/2012/09/17/somehow-words-escape-me/
They treat ALL who are not MALE MUSLIMS of THEIR particular cult {Shia/Sunni/Salafis/etc.} with similar degradation, torture and cruelty - their "Allah" is NO god of love or compassion - there is NO COMMON GROUND
Semper Fi'
DM
who started it? who makes movies that contain Fitnah? who took our land and recognize as their land? who is now bragging and if they are a victim?
study the scriptures you and you will know that the truth has been written in the book.
and quoting this " With one notable exception and a few smaller ones, American civilians have not been directly threatened by Muslim extremists. Most targets are military or diplomatic. The loss of lives is no less tragic, however the level of panic that is sweeping Boise, Idaho is hardly warranted, infinitesimal compared to what is suffered by citizens of Afghanistan, and certainly does not justify eliminationist rhetoric."
you should learned to forgive your enemies, because that is what Muhammad Sallahu Alaihi Wassalam (PBUH) would do..
DM
Are you aware that there are Muslims that live in the United States? And do so peaceably? I have met an Iranian woman who studied Engineering at the University of Maryland who was obviously the apple of her father's eye, and was, if anything, a bit spoiled. I went to high school with a woman of Saudi descent that wore a hijab (headscarf). She ended up attending Wellesley College. Her major? Women's studies.
You don't know what the hell you are talking about. And what you advocate is un-christian, unpatriotic, and downright terrifying. Remember that the people that you are talking about are exactly that: PEOPLE.
Thank you for your service
-A
Willie from California here;
I find myself amazed at thinking to myself that anything I could say would move anyone off their predetermined decisions – validated by reasonable documentation or not. Just for my own personal catharsis, and in spite of it being a waste of time, I’ll submit the following and consider this a done deal.
Remain stupid, or naïve, if you must, however;
1) Let me reiterate: “Peaceful Muslims” are either being vapid (ignorant or apathetic) about their religion, or deceitful. Both have the end result of disarming their enemy (us) with acts of passivity, even friendliness. As for “years of experience with Muslims” – I advise not to be a fool. They are in it for both the short, and the long, game. Years of fooling people is one of their specialties, similar to their short game of holding interminable “Negotiations”, pretending to listen, while in reality they are disarming their enemy long enough to allow a more effective attack when the “Negotiations” ultimately fail. Can anyone spell, “Nukes in Iran”?
2) Apparently deceit is inherently successful enough to be considered an inherent weakness of human nature because the tactic is well known and as old, or older than, the “Iliad”. King Priam of Troy, and apparently most of his society, were similarly disarmed by the Trojan Horse and hauled it inside their protective walls. Only prince Paris advised burning it on the beach. Oh how the people of Troy wished they had burned that horse when they had the chance.
3) Having had experience in Iran at the beginning of the revolution (Feb, 1979) that created their current regime, I have no illusions as to what an Islamic Theocracy (their ultimate goal for the world) is all about. I advise everyone within the sound of my voice to GET A CLUE.
4) It is considered not only honorable, but admirable, according to the Koran, to lie and cheat non-Muslims. These “Golden Rule” quotes from the Koran only apply to other Muslims (IMHO). If you don’t believe me, just look at the history and nature of the entire Islamic region.
5) EX: “…to the shores of Tripoli…” (Marine Corp. anthem) refers to fighting MUSLIM pirates 200+ years ago in the First Barbary War, when the Northwest African Berber Muslim States were plundering merchant traffic, and trying to extort payment from the U.S. to stop it (a form of Jizra, or Jizya, and the expectation of Dhimmitude). A proper, Koranic, Muslim is right to demand this from lesser peoples.
6) EX: Muslims in Afghanistan today are signing up to be police officers, then upon being given training and weapons by the Americans turn those weapons upon their benefactors. Can you spell, “Deceit”? How these Muslims must laugh at America’s insistence on being stupid.
And, Tom, thanks for the correction about Christians being passive. I should have worded it more like,
“Non-aggressive, but fully allowed to defend with force”, as indicated by the verses you mention. I knew that on some level, which is why I signed off with, “…and won’t allow it here.” Only God can achieve perfect love. I’m not god. I’ll try to love my enemy, but admit to having to draw a line.
The concept of getting rid of Muslims altogether is just plain silly. I would dearly love to see them exiled from the U.S., similar to Christians disallowed in Saudi Arabia. The best we can hope to achieve is an armed standoff built upon strength of arms and a distinct line in the sand. I won’t be aggressive, but I’ll sure do my best to make the aggressor regretful.
Now I’m done. Thanks all. Willie in California
"Anonymous", yes, I am WELL-AWARE of Muslims in the U.S. - there's a gas station nearby that is known for CELEBRATING when the planes flew into the Twin Towers/Pentagon/Shanksville, PA
We were living in Mexico when 9/11 occurred - WE COULDN'T GET BACK INTO OUR COUNTRY FOR FOUR DAYS.
I accept people on an individual basis - if they choose to dress like extras from The Wind and The Lion, you'll forgive me for wanting to take MY time determining whether they're trustworthy. I know a lovely young lady, Iranian, who wears the full, head-covering scarf {her face is exposed} - Noor & I have discussions on Islamic issues - because I ask respectfully, she's more than willing to give me her 'take' on issues.
When in the USMC, we were asked by our instructors to put forth the effort to make Iranian & Kuwaiti military members feel welcome. The Kuwaitis were fun, if rather juvenile in their efforts to bed any American women - the ONE Iranian I approached answered me with grunts, wouldn't look me in the face ........................
I went to Morocco in '95 for a week; I was driving one day, we saw an older man walking along a barren road, headed to a 'town' - we stopped, gave him a ride - he made me stop 3 blocks downhill from the mosque, because he was the local Imam, and couldn't afford to be seen driven by a woman.
I do believe YOU are the who doesn't know what they are talking about - and MY patriotism has NEVER been questioned. Of course, I also have the courage of my convictions to NOT post somewhere anonymously.
Tell me, how do YOU feel about the Blind Sheik being released to Egypt? YOU know, the old A$$ who masterminded the FIRST ATTACK on the World Trade Center?
Semper Fi'
DM
DM and Willie
I hope you can learn to separate a religion and culture that spans every continent and has a variety of sects and traditions from a radical sect that is an admittedly dangerous minority.
I hope that Islamic extremists don't use the paranoid hate that you and others like you are spewing to justify killing innocent civilians. (though you have every right to say it)
Somehow I doubt either of those prospects.
- Alden from Washington, DC
Allow me to put this as succinctly and SIMPLY as possible, so that even YOU can understand: You are correct in your doubts, because Western Civilization is ATTEMPTING TO DEAL WITH SAVAGES who have NO desire to "coexist" - witness "Juan Carlos" comments - it STARTED 1,400 YEARS AGO, when the pedophile revered as Muhammed tried to take over the world ...................... gates of Vienna, anyone?
Semper Fi'
DM
The point that Anonymous at 11:35 and all of the other liberals attempted to make is faulty due to the fact that it does not take into account who is the primary aggressor. According to that logic someone who calls me on the phone and tells me that they are coming to my home to kill me, take my things and enslave my family becomes my moral equivalent if I act in a preemptive manner to stop them from doing so.Make no mistake muslim doctrine and teaching is the equivalent of such a phone call. The only difference between "moderate" muslims and the extremist is their opinion of when the aggression should begin. The moderates believe they should await the arrival of their mahdi (Islamic messiah) prior to their start of hostilities. The extremists believe that their actions will facilitate the coming of the mahdi and the sooner they attack the better. It is of no consequence to me when someone who has chosen to become my sworn enemy plans to attack me. I will eliminate the threat at the first possible opportunity. Otherwise undoubtedly the threat will find me on a day of weakness or when I am unaware. This is the same foolishness that allows the Iranians to continue their nuclear ambitions because we think we have time. It is reckless and foolish and any tactician will tell you it's a formula for ultimate defeat.
Tom
Peter said:
"Just as we don't judge the whole of Christianity through those verses, we don't judge the whole of Islam through any particular suras."
No, we judge islam by the body count and by its malevolent influence on our values.
I don't recall a Christian equivalent of Beslan.
KG, THANK YOU!! There is also no equivalent of 9/11, 7/7 {UK}, 3/11 {Spain}, 10/12 {Bali}, 7/13 {Mumbai} or any of the THOUSANDS of other attacks ...............
Semper Fi'
DM
If/When a major Islamic figure declares fatwa on the perpetrators I'll believe that "Muslims" are offended by this. Otherwise remember that the shortest Hadith is: "War is deceit" - while not in the Qur'an itself they are the words of the Prophet.
.
As an extra ironic twist, Barnhardt believes that granting women the right to vote was one of the worst things to happen to this country, which gives her rather more common ground with those she hates than most...
Anyway. Not posting to say much beyond complete agreement. I doubt I can do a damn thing to otherwise convince those to whom "those Others of which I have become aware are savages, therefore it is acceptable for me to advocate complete savagery on our part" is justifiable logic. I am not especially well traveled myself, but I have family who are, and who have spent most of their lives in predominantly Muslim regions. They report they consist primarily of people.
Lots of excellent discussion above!
+1 for the group that recognizes islam is a death cult masquerading as a religion.
No other religion calls for the forcible subjugation or extermination of "non-believers".
If the US government will codify a definition of what a religion is or is not, we could take effective action against the savagery that muslims perpetrate.
Hi Alden,
Geez. I thought I was done, but I can’t let your charge go unchallenged.
Is it something in the water in Washington that causes people like you in D.C. to think the way they do – erroneously?
Do you not see the irony of me stating facts and you calling it hate. Do you not see my determination to resist the Islamification of America in a defensive manner as different from those who would aggressively convert us by force? In the Koran it makes little distinction between conversion by the heart and conversion by the sword. The people of the Koran DON’T CARE – just as long as the conversion is made. Fear is as good a motivator as love as far as they are concerned. History proves that, and if you don’t recognize that, you have an insurmountable shortcoming of some sort.
You call it “paranoid” to recognize an openly stated goal by our self-acknowledged enemies to dominate us? Jihad (Holy War – emphasis on WAR) was already in place when I was in Iran in 1979. We of the west just didn’t take it seriously until 9/11. Stupid us. And you think that it is only “extremists” who hold the point of view that they ought to place the world under Sharia Law, when the founding document of their religion dictates it? You are either stupid, or in such deep denial of facts that it closely resembles stupidity. To call me paranoid is a shameful attempt to denigrate me and thereby diminish my point of view. Shame on you. There is a psychological term called “Projection”, whereby someone accuses another of having a mental disturbance that they, themselves, have. I have to wonder if it isn’t you that is paranoid of someone who will tell you a truth that panics you.
If I state a fact and it is construed hatred, then the fact must be hateful. EX: If I call a murderer a murderer, I am not being hateful, I’m just recognizing the fact that someone has, or is, doing something hateful. The act of murder is hateful, not me for recognizing it. It is a fact that if there is a “radical” sect of Islam, a group who does not follow the exactitudes of the Koran, it would be those who do not aggressively pursue the “Infidel”. Read it for yourself in the Koran, but please read it without your D.C. Politician P/C glasses on. It makes you look dumb.
Muslims are told that it is honorable to lie, cheat, steal, and do anything else they want to the “Infidel”. Muslims = people, Infidels = dogs, Jews = pigs. I’ve heard it often as it isn’t an unusual sentiment in ethnocentric Muslim societies. Muslims are superior. Nothing less is to be tolerated. Because I recognize that, you say that I’m paranoid and a hater. That’s just plain dumb.
I currently know Muslims that I have great affection for and we treat each other with warmth. Mostly I feel sorry for them and want to help them. The Book of Revelation does not bode well for them. I gave one a very nice Bible after he told me that he loves to celebrate Christmas (though only for the party and gift aspect of it) and is married to an American (who I have seen now in a burka). I tried to give another a nice Bible and he refused to even touch it. Unclean. He, unfortunately, insists on remaining ignorant, as dictated by his Madrasah while growing up, and by his Mullah as an adult. I fear that he will be a useful idiot to Islam his whole life, typical of most of their people; one-sided education/indoctrination. Their religious philosophy is so weak that it has to be protected by ignorance or it would fall. I pray for them often. However, I have no illusions as to their goals here in America. I just hope to love them and hope that they eventually realize that they are following a basic evil.
“Hold your friends close, and hold your enemies even closer.” (Old Yiddish proverb)
“If the nose of the camel is in the tent, then the whole camel is in the tent.” (Old Arabic proverb)
Willie in California (Not the “Will” from an above posting.)
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